Padre have you ever talked to any of these "devastating" guides? Do you not realize how many people go out with them on STRICTLY catch and release trips? Most guides are more than willing (and even recommend) offering highly reduced prices for these trips. My question for you is, are they still "selling the fish" like you say? What's the difference between them and you when you take out your friends besides the fact that they're making money doing it? I personally respect the guides that take out inexperienced people and introduce them to "your" fisheries and "private wading holes", and teach the tricks of the trade. I guess I should tell my dad and grandpa, both whom I love fishing and being outdoors with, that they can't pass on their advice on methods to me. I say keep on keepin' on guides.

Several folks have mentioned outlawing Croaker. I'm curious, with the T,P, & W far understaffed as is, how would you propose to enforce this ban? To me, that would be like prohibition and simply uninforceable.

I agree that Croaker provides an unfair advantage to the fishing person, not anything like telephone with wires or even commercial 24/7 long hook lines, however,

To me, the answer is a combo of changed attitudes amongst those of us who fish the coast and also declaring certain waters as artificials only. The fresh water trout world uses this approach very successfully, especially on certrain streches of water below spillways, designating them artificials only and catch and release only....sometimes called gold waters or trophy waters.

By designating certain key areas, a limited staff can enforce such a regulation....and if we fishing folks apply our own enforcement, we can really make a difference.

Anyone know if designated trophy waters has been considered by T,P,& W and/or CCA or anyone? I would support it with great enthusiasm!!

artificial only ares are a good idea, lot easier to enforce too. i would definitely support that

can't figure it out.......You can use this bait, but not this one. With all the hullabaloo about CORKYS and trophy trout, when are they going to start petitions to outlaw them?

I have fished with croakers plenty of times and with piggies. Different times of the year the piggies are much better. Then other times, mullet work best! Oh, and don't forget live shrimp! And when that doesn't work, I go artificial. I'm not pulling limits consistently, either.

When we begin targeting bait, we take the thrills away from a kid who may be fishing with his dad and hooks a trout, red, or whatever! I'M NOT FOR THAT!

Just my opinion, nothing worth posting a flag over!

I didn’t read all the post, however I’m sure it’s not much different than the 100’s I’ve read on the internet through the years. I guess I’ll start by asking “Padre” a question: What happened to the shrimp, what happened to the mud minnows [ Killifish] ……the inshore lizardfish, the sand eels, the ribbon fish…………and…..my favorite… what happened to the Baffin Bay flounder? Surely you have noticed a problem. Did the guides catch all those too? On my charter service, I’ve only landed ONE keeper flounder in 2-1/2 years. So what’s the problem? I have my theories but more on that in a minute. OK, I’ve noticed that most people will place the blame on things they “can” see while giving very little credence to the things they “can’t” see. Case-n-point…What’s worse…..a bad cut on your arm or chronic heart disease? One’s very apparent……..the other is not. Well, I’ve learned the same kind of problems can be applied to our marine environment. What’s worse…..our current fishing pressure, or…… all the herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, fungicides, and fertilizer running off into our waters? With the absence to the species I listed above, I have to blame the later. As more and more research has been done, the answers are starting to be clearer. Here’s one from the Stanford University News Service Letter - “Researchers have long suspected that fertilizer runoff from big farms can trigger sudden explosions of marine algae capable of disrupting ocean ecosystems and even producing "dead zones" in the sea. Now a new study by Stanford University scientists presents the first direct evidence linking large-scale coastal farming to massive algal blooms in the sea.” They are talking about “Oceans” here……I’m talking about a small secondary bay [Baffin Bay] that takes one year for the water to turn-over. So, my point is this……..any good discussion about the current state of our fishery needs to include a discussion of the agricultural run-off effects these farm fields are having on our system. Anyway, I have some interesting data (some scientific…..some not). Here’s an unscientific fact I’ve come up with about using croaker as bait. According to the TP&W department, their gillnets show a catch ratio for trout as being a little less than one trout per hour. A guide using croaker, in the general area the nets are set, can catch trout 5 to 10 times that rate. In other words, using live croaker as bait has shown to be more effective than the 600 foot gillnet used by the TXP&W. So “Yes” there’s no doubt that croaker is having a negative effect on our fishery. The hardest thing is what or how to deal with a method of fishing that’s so effective. Yes, it’s a very political sensitive issue, but something needs to be done. Capt. Jon Fails http://www.landcut.com

Capt. Fails, that was a good post, and as you stated, something most of us don't think of initially. Its natural to blame the most obvious for a problem we face that usually has many facets.

I had to quote your statement on croaker. I didn't realize croaker are that effective!!

I think it's fair to be concerned about the impact large numbers of guides have on a species of fish (trout in this case)... I also think it's fair to suggest limits be lowered etc... But to lash out on guides like this is pretty low IMHO...

It is legal for them to guide and is legal for their customers to keep their limit... they're doing what they're allowed to do... they don't set the limits...

I've never used a guide and do not know any guides personally, so I'm no guide "homer", but lay off the guys...

I know 'OF' a guide who works with a good friend of mine in law enforcement... this guy guides on the side and maybe goes 3 trips a week... the guy can catch his fish... a lot of the time he'll keep a limit, but sometimes his customers just want to catch fish and are not worried about their limits... he encourages them to just keep a few but to catch as many as possible... I'd be willing to say that over half the guides we have out there are of the same ilk...

Also, as mentioned before on this thread, most-likely not all of these "600" or however many guides are fishing trout all of the time, they also guide other species... some even guide duck hunts and waterfowl etc... I'd be willing to bet that a lot of non-guided fishermen leave a nice (or not so nice) dent in the trout population as well... also, a lot of guides get customers who just want to wet a line... take their kid out to catch some reds are hardheads, they don't care, they've got the money and they're gunna spend it...

As for the Croaker arguement, don't bash the Croaker fisherman... they're catching their fish and it's legal for them to do so in that method, and until it is illegal to do so don't go all ape-[censored] on 'em... and no I don't use croaker, I use artis for my trout, but the whole point is to catch fish and if croaker are legal, people are gunna use 'em because they CATCH FISH...

get some petitions going or something, show TPW or whoever how much it concerns you... gripe at them or whoever is responsible for allowing so many fish to be taken... but take it easy on the guides, they're very important to our economy whether you like it or not...

I'm satisfied with 4-5 decent trout and 5x that released, btw, dunno about 500 pounds...

amen on that part...

What I'm against is a 40 year old man walking to the end of a busy pier with 7 cell-phone tower-sized fishing set-ups and taking up fishing space from others so he can catch-and-release hardheads all night...

that is pretty interesting, then again it's kinda empty... I'm thinking speckled trout are more attracted to food than they are nets... I can see where you're trying to go with it, but there's really nothing there... it's all common-sense, fish look for food and when they find it they eat it... fish don't stop on a dime to feed on nets...

I guess I'm happy for the croaker-guy who is happy to catch fish all day and have people over for a fish fry... or maybe I'm defending Mr. and Mrs. MomAndPop-Baitstand who make 'em some money during the croaker season when their flags are flying...

Maybe I need more education on this subject because I just use artis...

I could care less if someone uses croaker or not. Personally, I don't, but I don't hold it against someone who does.

As with everything in this world, there are slobs that just take and take. These people are in the minority, though.

For those that want to see Croaker banned as bait, maybe try a different approach. You see, this is not the first time people have been upset about the use of croaker. Down in Port Mansfield a few years ago the croaker wars started between GUIDES.

In Matagorda last year, croaker wars broke out and was once again started by GUIDES. Petitions were sent out, TPWD contacted, etc...

Basically, if you want to see croaker banned as bait do not go about it that way. TPWD has heard numerous times about this.

Instead, push for gamefish status of Croaker. Do not mention the reason for this being a bait issue. I know it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Croaker obtain gamefish status. It would be nice to see the Croaker runs I have heard my grandparents talk about. In the prime Croaker spots along the coast where these runs used to take place, 2lb croaker weren't unusual.

It would be cool to see this fishery come back and giving Croaker gamefish status would do this. This would be another resource to get kids started in the fishing world as they are fairly easy to catch. They also eat pretty good, so you could keep a few and make a kids day!

Once again, if you really want to see croaker gone from baitstands...push for gamefish status. If you go to TPWD with another petition against the use of croaker as bait, it won't go far. The scientific data TPWD has done on this subject does not support the ban of croaker.

There are lots of reason the decline in Trout do not just blame the Guides. I have seen many many many ILLEGAL Trout caught and taken , I have seen many many trout taken off stringers DEAD and thrown on beaches. So easy to blame just ONE group . No it is MANY . Thats all I have to say so I'll go back to reading and dreaming .

hmmm, giving croaker gamefish status... I think I could see that working?

but let's say they do not get gamefish status, but we put a ban on them... what then? how would that effect the fisheries along our coast? theories?

maybe TPW has done their homework and feel it would not be the best thing for our fisheries to have a dramatic rise in the croaker population?

zimmy, I can't answer your questions. You do have some good questions though! I really don't have an agenda, but I do know that people have tried to have croaker banned as bait and it didn't go anywhere.

I was just throwing out another avenue that might possibly work.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't use croaker and I don't have a problem with others using them.

forgot, the trout in the LLM was the cover story for Texas Fish and Game this month... finally went and read the article...

honestly it doesn't seem as bad as padre has made it out to be...

here's a piece out of the mag:

---

TPWD officials noted that trout still flourish in the large, hypersaline bay, which boasts more than 185 square miles of seagrass meadows.

"Catch rates for speckled trout, as they are commonly called, are measured in number of fish caught per hour or catch per unit of effort (CPUE)," according to a TPWD statement. Further, coastwise CPUE has continued to rise.

"In the Lower Laguna Madre, from the Land Cut down to South Bay, the CPUE has been declining. the catch rates in the lower Laguna Madre are still high as compared to other bay systems, but clearly are not being maintained at historical highs," Blankinship said. "Lower Laguna Madre has exhibited over the last several years a trend that is not as upward moving, showing a slightly negative trend in relative abundance. It does not mean our fishery is in trouble, but it isn't seeing the general upwards trends that the rest of the coast has."

(Randy Blankinship, quoted in this clip I gave, is TPWD's ecosystem leader for the LLM)

oh yah, was talking to my friend... he said his co-worker (the guide) called and said he and a couple of customers limited out quick yesterday around noon... they were using Norton Mardi-Gras...

we need to throw those out with the croaker

NO MORE MARDI GRAS!

You bring about some good points I would think about what you just said.keeping posts on the subject.you shld do the same.now you solution is to put guides on a 5 or 3 trout limit?correct
you are aware that there was a 33% increase in sold fishing licences over the last two years.It would be safe to assume there are more working men fishing.or 33% more guides? when you go fishing do you see more boat traffic?you are much older than me.I agree to some of the things you pointed out [perry bass} and other things.I got off the subject because of the anger you have.its apparent.so lets put a limit on all fishing for trout.fair?no personal attacks I go out to rockport and baffin bay and catch my share of trout?anyone else out there that does not?like I said before T.P.W.I apologize for calling you a hater.
I took the liberty of reading all most of your posts.and you have been attacked left and right.this forum was not put here for that.Good luck.Senoir.

Toke , toke pass the toke.....

yes sir hendo just got mixed up in politics and posted worng topic might be better .good luck on ur next outing

Padre,You bring about some good points I would think about what you just said.keeping posts on the subject.you shld do the same.now you solution is to put guides on a 5 or 3 trout limit?correct
you are aware that there was a 33% increase in sold fishing licences over the last two years.It would be safe to assume there are more working men fishing.or 33% more guides? when you go fishing do you see more boat traffic?you are much older than me.I agree to some of the things you pointed out [perry bass} and other things.I got off the subject because of the anger you have.its apparent.so lets put a limit on all fishing for trout.fair?no personal attacks I go out to rockport and baffin bay and catch my share of trout?anyone else out there that does not?like I said before T.P.W.I apologize for calling you a hater.
I took the liberty of reading all most of your posts.and you have been attacked left and right.this forum was not put here for that.Good luck.Senoir.

My English teachers would've said "punctuation, spelling, capitalization and grammar". Your post is ... well .. ambiguous and unclear because it's so hard to read. What are you trying to convey?

I've fished with lots of guides along the Texas coast. Fishing with a guide does not mean you are putting a limit in the boat. Some of the math presented in this post, concerning guide caught trout, is a little exaggerated.

Also, I think you need to compare the number of recreational anglers boating and fishing the coast every day to the number of guides on the water. I bet the guides make up less than one percent. If anyone has a study concerning those numbers, it would be interesting information to add to this post.

fact is I can throw a croaker out in some random spot and not catch squat... but if I find the fish, and then throw the croaker? seems fair?

Saw an old school fishing show, Keith Warren... him and a guide were rippin' lips using some croaker... they were biting like crazy... they did catch bigger trout, but they caught more of the smaller sized trout...

I don't think a smaller trout would have problem with croakers and I know they don't, I've seen people bring in smaller ones with Croaker and I've seen people bring in Bigger ones with artis...

and what's your "larger trout" that croaker catch? 22"+? I mean if this is truely about saving the larger trout, then banning croaker wouldn't be the answer... as of right now our rule says we can keep only ONE 25"+ trout... maybe see if lowering it to 23" or 22" or something would help, because I'm sure there are plenty "almost 25" but not quite" trout out there...

Hey Padre, let's spread some of the blame around here. I see you blaming the depleted fisheries on the guides. I don't know of any guides who are keeping a limit of fish. It's the client who is keeping the limits and it is also the client who demands that the guide produce for him. What is needed is an overall change of attitude by all of us. I am an advocate of limit your kill not kill your limit.If guide is a self employed small business who is trying to male a living outdoors. He can request that clients limit their take,and attempt to educate, but if the client refuses what's the solution? I've seen a lot of folks out there that measure their success by how many fish they take home.If the guide doesn't produce, he quickly goes out of business. Now I only spend three months in the winter down in Texas and use my own boat,When I'm fortunate enough I like to keep a couple of fish to eat and release the rest. but the hookem and cookem and more is better mentality seems to be the rule. Catch and release is the rule of the day in freshwater trout and bass fishing and the fish numbers are at an all time high. As are guide numbers.
Now I've followed this post with interest and I see a lot of blaming and bellyaching but few viable solutions. The problem of fish population reduction is multifaceted. ALL of us are in a small way part of the problem. We have to face the fact that there is no way to make it the way it used to be, period. Do I know the solution to the problem? NO! All I can do is my part in educating those around me to respect the resource and take only what they will need.

tokein here, bump then pass

Well said M.T, well said. I've written it several times in this thread that we need an attitude change on the Texas coast...and it is probably not coincidental that a "winter" Texan is about the only person who has stepped up to state that same view.

I just do not understand why we Texan coastal fishers do not have the same attitudes toward protecting our resources that our freshwater brethen have and just about everyone else across the Country has toward conservation. Instead, we blame guides, we blame croaker soakers, we blame commercial guys (as well we should :)), we blame farmers, but we never seem to look at ourselves introspectively.

Our coastal fish are far too valuable to be caught only once.