Being a "Smuck" from north of Dallas who can spell trout, I take issue with you lummping all guides in the same bait bucket.

IMO, there are two kinds of guides on the coast. The Professional guide who works year round, self imposes limits on his guest, uses artificials and in general protects the resource. (Someone like Billy Sandifer comes to mind but there are plenty of others.)
Then there are the "Croaker Guides" who only go out when croaker are readily available and don't give a rat's backside about anything or anyone other then filling the cooler and offsetting his boat payment.
The Pro guides down there do a great deal to protect those fish to the benefit of everyone including the local economy. Their livelyhood depends on a healthy fishery and they know it. The Croaker guide is in it for a fast buck and when the fish are gone he will move on to screw something else up.

I do not own a motorboat and I'm lucky if I can get to the coast 2 or 3 times a year. If I wan't to fish water like Baffin Bay, I will need to hire a guide plain and simple.

Padre,
Should I be denied the chance to fish there because you are no longer able to catch 500 pounds of fish in a night?

Padre - the guides are not wasting the fish...their customers are taking them home to eat. Why discredit an individual that may not have a boat, know the waters, know what to use or the species they are seeking? Do you do the same for the outfitters who guide quail, duck, dove, goose, deer, javelina, feral hog, pheasant and all the remaining species hunts? Should they be banned also? You are really pushing the limit on calling others names or classifying those that hire guides being smucks. It seems to me your doing some big-time trolling.

Great reply Spiny!!

I agree with the guys mentioning Griger's book "Plugger."

There are alot of factors as to why fishing in many areas has changed.

I've only used a Guide twice. Learned some great technique but have not caught alot of fish using them. I do better on my own.

Absolutely oblivious to the ProbleM! Here's the numbers...600 guides fishing 4 days a week, with 2 fishermen catching a limit of 15" trout each = 96,000 trout per week. Multiply that X 52 Weeks in the year = 4,992,000 Trout! Keep that figure in your "Open Minds"....5 Million Trout a year!..Now I know Every guide don't work 4 days a week...some work 7 days a week...and they don't ALWAYS catch their limit of trout.
But if only half of this number is a fact, then our trout Fishery is over. Can you guys add? Are you Blind to these facts? Do you not know how many Croaker guides are fishing the Laguna? A guy who don't own a boat and fishes twice a year in the Laguna HARDLY has a sage OPINION. Give me a break! I'm trying to save the Trout fishery for our children. You guys are lobbying for the Guides? I'm laughing at the Hypocricy!

Why don't you produce the facts for us instead of using simple math. Go interview the guides when they arrive at the marinas or better yet, why not get the data from TPWD down there in the Laguna area since they interview all anglers coming in at all marinas/boat ramps. It's public knowledge...

You're putting a constant by saying all anglers that fish with guides will catch a limit...you're farther from the truth than you think, not only that, but there's no reasoning with you.

Padre,
I'm afraid it's your math/facts that are flawed.

Croaker guides only go when there are croaker readily available. It's easy pickins and requires no real effort or skill. The rest of the year they crawl back under their rocks.

Just because there are 600 registered guides does not mean they are fishing 4 times a week or 52 weeks in a year. I'm sure very few of them book more then 100 trips per annum. It does not mean they are all fishing bait. It does not mean they are all keeping limits on every trip. It doesn't even mean they are all targeting Specks.
Yes the trout have declined all up and down the coast and yes it is IMO due primarily to the use of Croakers for bait. Not just those guides who use them but from average fisherman who use them as well. And those aren't just smucks from Dallas. Plenty of locals are using croakers.

By equating croaker guides with professional guides, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater and doing a real diservice to some of the very people who help preserve this fishery. If you want to help the trout out, ban the use of croakers for bait. It will help restore the trout and get rid of the fly by night guides.

Yes there is a real problem with declining trout on the Texas coast, but blaming it all on every guide is wrong on many levels.
There are plenty of upstanding guides down there who play by the rules and go above and beyond for our waters and they don't deserve to be lumped in with the croaker crowd.

BTW, Simply because I do not own a boat or get to fish the coast as much as I would like doesn't make my opinions any less valid then yours. If you don't have a airplane, does that prevent you from commenting on your delayed flight? Makes about as much sense.

Spiny - I think trying to reason with 'padre' would be no different than talking to a fencepost or a stump! Who's next to kick the deadhorse?

The guides I know and use do not use croakers; they use nothing but artificials, either conventional tackle or fly, have a very strict limit on numbers kept, if any, and often adopt a "catch and release" philosophy. They apply that to themselves and their clients, and they are highly protective of both fish and environment. They follow this plan on the flats and in the bays. It comes down to the fact that those guides love their work; they love the water and the fish; and they want to get to continue doing what they're doing, so they try to educate their clients and the public and don't harm the environment. I really don't know what goes on in bluewater because I haven't fished there.

I fish when I'm off, and I'm too lazy to clean any I catch, so I am totally catch and release, except for when someone wants to have a fish fry. I have gone to flyfishing and use the flies I tie. Whether I'm catching or not, I'm having fun!

People who fish with croakers, guides or individuals, are not fishermen. They are the leaches with no talent who slide through life taking and never giving. That, folks, is my opinion of croaker fishers. The bait should be outlawed and those that use it should be chased off the water.

Ray

I am new to this forum but not new to the Texas coast,born and raised in Calallen,lived on the coast for my first 15 years, Spent many a weekend at Big shell and in the Laguna Madre. I take as many trips down as I can per year, typically 3 to 6, from Galveston East bay, West bay, Rollover pass, Bolivar Surf, Texas City Dike, POC, Powderhorn Lake, Aransas Bay, Redfish Bay, Traylor Island, Hogg Island, Lydia Ann Channel, Upper Laguna Madre, Baffin Bay. Maybe I am not that great a fisherman cause I have yet to fill my ice chest with my full limit of Speckled trout and reds, except the one trip I went with a guide. I read many articles written by guides in various magazines and they have a very loud voice because it is in print, But they do not own the water, just as I dont personally own it either, it is a resource to be enjoyed by all, and I dont like someone cutting in on my drift as I am hooking up with some nice fish, as it is not the ethical thing to d. I dont think however that just because I paid a guide to fish that day that wherever he takes me is my personal water. Too many guides complain about recreational anglers following them and cutting in on their space, I see guides as I see birds gathering above the water, I will respect his boat and do everything I can to not blow out the fishing but that doesnt mean I shouldnt fish there. Now I respect that guide I went with as he and I got along fine, and I was able to get down to an area that my family had a cabin at when I was young, lots of memories.. But my point is this, Logical restrictions have to be put in place based on sound scientific methods, not opinion, banning guides puts a bad light on sportfishing in general, just as banning a certain type of bait,or banning recreational fishing. I read about Californias idiotic bans on favorite fishing holes, and I shudder to think we are on the same path. There is a solution to all this, and that is get involved and let your voice be heard. Be courteous on the water, after all Aren't We the Friendly State?

Its all about attitudes. If more of us individuals had that attitude and only fished with guides who shared that attitude, we would not be having this debate. Some are like fence posts, as mentioned earlier and nevre change, and never will. Kill every trout, kill them all and kill them all year long. That attitude has to change amongst thinking people and if it does the problem will go away.

Just returned from a trip to Key West. There are many, many more guides operating there now than there were 10 years ago...couldn't even begin to estimate the numbers.....but the fishing is substantially better than 10 years ago. Ask any flats guide that has been there for over 10 years and they will all tell the same story...significantly improved fishing, species that they had rarely seen in the past are now present in fishable numbers. Its all about atitudes...you don't kill a Tarpon, bonefish, permit, or just about any other sport fish with a guide in Key West...doing so may endanger your personal safety.

The fence posts will, over time, disappear....we need to educate the upcoming generations of folks fishing inshore Texas waters to have the same atitudes toward our trout as others have toward sport fish in their areas. When attitudes change, and fence posts rot away, the problems will go away.

I started fishing Port Mansfield when I was 10. Thats 52 years ago

I started fishing Pt. Mansfield when I was 6...in 1951.


HEY JUST A LITTLE ADVICE. IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIE YOU NEED TO KEEP YOU STORIES STRAIGHT. WHAT A NTAC.

Well, Padre's "Math" was suspect from the beginning. Problem is, he only offers anecdotal evidence without any hard facts. Give me some scientific method, and I might be persuaded to believe his position.

 Quote:

Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization).

Maybe we should look at the Red limit as well. I think there's too many red fish running around eating up all the trout's forage. If the limits were raised for reds, there just might be more trout. But that's just how I've seen it when growing up around Galveston. I'm also a guide, but for just fresh water. All the guides I know on the coast follow the laws religiously and help to keep the fisheries the best possible but like others have pointed out, there's always a few bad apples. As a matter of fact, some of the restaurants, etc in Galveston should be more closely examined as to where they are getting their speckled trout. hmm...

Don't forget all of the scumbags and illegals that keep everything they catch! Typically, guides are the type of fisherman that has a deep respect for fish of all kinds and the environment. If everyone had that type of passion and respect for fisheries all over, I don't think there would be a problem! There are much more than 600 boats a week in that area that are captained by someone who is not a guide that will keep much more than the limit! Guides are not to blame! If anything, there should be a lot more Game Wardens! My two cents.

I caught a Trout once, but let it go.....

I've never seen a croaker and darn sure wouldnt eat anything I caught on something dead.

I like Redfish!!!! Too bad we cant keep more or em!!!

Guides are the best fishermen there are. Yeah...Yeah..I hear that everyday. And I agree with that. Thats why they take so many trout. They can catch them for their clients when regular guys have a hard time. 20 Years ago Texas passed the " FinFish" laws. That took Trout and Redfish ( From Texas Waters) out of the Supermarkets. This was done to save the Trout and Redfish fishery from ruin. Our guides ..600 strong in the Laguna, are in effect SELLING Trout and Redfish! They are taking Money to help clients catch and KEEP Trout and Redfish. There are plenty of other species to fish for than Trout. How about a GAR Guide..or better yet, a CARP GUIDE!
The Guides are selling our Natural Resource ( Trout ) to the highest biodder. And when they are gone...just like the Red Snapper, We'll be sitting around pointing fingers and trying to figure out where they wemt. Stop the guides from Selling Trout.
The Trout are not THERE's to SELL!

Quit yer bellyachin' There are fish freakin' everywhere. Just because YOU can't go out and catch your "500lb of fish per night" doesn't mean you can't go out and limit out. Just takes work.

So you're also telling us that those who don't have the time or money to buy a boat don't have the right to go out and catch a limit?

Guides make it available for EVERYONE to catch fish and I thought that is what's it all about.

So. Tex. Fish!...Investing in the Fishery is what its all about. I spent 30 years not owning a boat. I fished piers, Wadeing, the surf. Tell me where the Trout have gone. Tell ME why there is a 5 fish limit on Trout in the Lower Laguna. I'm listening? Did all of us "Waders" catch them all? I csn catch all the trout I want, because I can AFFORD to spend any amount I want to accomplish that. But hiring a guide isn't an option for me. They're selling the fish...the Trout. If you can't catch trout on your own...try something more simple for you...like CARP! Or Perch! Better yet. Save the fishery althogether, go to HEB and buy some farm raised catfish!

I walked out near the ship channel in Port Isabel three weeks ago and caught 5 17+ inch trout. Didn't seem too hard.

the 5 fish limit is because of people like you who COMPLAIN they can't find a fish without looking. Look harder.

Your thoughts about being a guide not a job are way off. "Selling" the trout. Free Enterprise. If the product is there, why the heck not? Last time I checked it was completly legal. DEAL WITH IT!

Yeah, I HATE the Croaker Soakers as much as you though. Gotta agree there.

I believe the legal limit is 15" because this is when a trout becomes an adult and can reproduce. If you make it 14" they will never have that chance to reproduce.

For all you guys that say, that when ever you head to down to PM or Baffin you need a guide, just be aware that the guides are also complaining. They are struggling to put people on keeper sized fish. The resource down there is not what it once was and the guides will be the first to tell you. Just because they are a guide, doesn't mean you will catch fish! I've got a few friends that guide down there, and I can tell you they said some of the guides have tried to get croaker banned! I even think there was a petition going around. Its gotten real bad down there.

Iv'e been reading every post,All very interesting..Please pardon My ignorance on this subject,Croaker?? Can someone explain to me the croaker issue? Thanks

i know that a lot of guides would prefer that their clients not keep full limits but most of their clients want ot load the cooler full of fillets. Not that this is something that we shouldn't do anything about. just an observation.

Hey 'Padre'...here's your answer!

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20070409c

It would be comparible to fishing for bass with waterdogs. Croaker are a natrual enemy to trout. Trout eat/attack croaker even when they are not hungry. Apparantley fishing with croaker is deemed unfair by many enthusiasts. Guides and many fisherman have complained that its too easy to catch fish with croaker, saying that the average fisherman can go and catch a limit of trout fishing with croaker. While other guides have deals set up with the fish camps ensuring that they get thier croaker daily. Croaker is seasonal. Although I'm not exactly sure when, but croaker season starts in April I think, and runs thru August. Usually by September the croaker are too big.