I started fishing Port Mansfield when I was 10. Thats 52 years ago. Back when the old RedFish Motel occupied the Point off the Ship channel. Seen many boatloads of trout and reds caught there. My Dad and I used to go north and camp on the King Ranch Shoreline. Fish all night with cut bait on the bottom. Many nights we would catch 500 lbs. of Trout and Redfish.
I read somewhere that there were 650 guides fishing Baffin and Pt. Mansfield. 5 years ago, you could wade fish the Tide Gauge Bar at Baffin and catch 10 keeper Trout in an hour or two. Same with Corrales, or Peniscal. Today, you have to catch 100 14 inch trout for every 10 keepers. Nothing has devastated our Trout fishery more than the Guides that are selling our Fish to the highest bidder. If 650 guides make 4 trips a week with 2 guests and catch 2 limits of trout per trip = 52,000 keeper trout caught per week. No fishery can survive with that kind of destruction. Especially when the guides at Pt. Mansfield were using Croker and taking ALL the big fish. Now...we are limited to 5 trout per day in Pt. Mansfield. I'm glad my DAD isn't alive to see this devastation. I know some here will piss and moan that we need the guides, but the facts speak for themselves. The guides need to be eliminated from the Trout fishery. Immediately! Or...we won't have any trout left for our kids.

Man can I have some of whatever you are smoking? It sounds like its some really good stuff.

Trolling with stinkbait.

Padre,

I think I know somewhat how you feel about seeing a fishery decline precipitiously having gone through the big freezes of the 80's around Galveston. It is hard to take, but the guides aren't the entire blame. They are just trying to make a living providing a service that people want.

Now guides that use their limit to apply to customers, I have a big problem with as well as guides that don't respect the resource by failing to practice proper catch and release...they are foolish and killing the very resource that supports them, a behavior which is less than intelligent.

The fishery down the Laguna is very limited in terms of the fishing pressure it can withstand. Some folks will argue, but the facts are that the Laguna is simply not capable of supporting the same kind of fishing pressure we see around Galveston. The biology doesn't lie.

Outlawing guides isn't the answer, IMO. Strict limits that are enforced is the only hope of restoring the fishery. Outlawing the use of croakers as bait would also be a step that would help the situation. Croaker fishing extracts a terrible toll on the fishery and tends to negate the effects of catch and release fishing.

But we that fish shouldn't always blame everyone else for the problems. We should exercise restraint, each one of us. We should carefully release fish and we should help with enforcement of regulations by turning in offenders....just like hunters in our State have substantially reduced poaching by turning in offenders, we should actively do the same. The fishery is too important to allow a few bad apples to ruin it for the many.

In this day and age, 5 trout are plenty to keep. Trout don't age well in the freezer and most people simply don't need to retain even 5 trout. I wouldn't mind seeing the limit go even lower until attitudes change and the fishery recovers.

Freshwater trout fishing shows the benefits of low limits and especially of fishing people who care enough about their resource to actively oppose those who do not....turn them in!!! Why is it that saltwater trout are any less valued than freshwater trout, or LMB, or any other freshwater sport fish? Why are our trout often thrown in garbage cans to rot? Why do we tolerate those who would destroy what we enjoy so much?

There are folks on here who brag about catching and keeping over 100 trout a day. I submit to you that we can no longer tolerate those individuals in our fisheries and should make every effort to have them removed. Great fishermen don't deplete the resource and then brag about it, they protect it and then honor it.

This thread will probably bring out some of those folks...folks who would catch and kill every trout if they could...and then brag about it, take pictures of them on the cleaning table as if that somehow makes them a better fishing person. Those days are gone. The great fishing people now are the ones that preserve the resource. Until us saltwater folks finally get the same attitudes that most of our freshwater brethern have had for years regarding catch and release and resource protection, we will all suffer....and that in my opinion is the biggest problem, not the guides

P.s.

The late great Lee Wolfe said something like "sport fish are too valuable to be caught just once". If we saltwater trout fishers adopted that attitude toward specs, the problems you speak of would no longer be problems.

Either you Guide lovers can't add or you are in denial. 650 guides taking hundreds of thousands of trout a month out of our fishery is CRIMINAL. These fish are NOT FOR SALE! Yet the guides are selling them. Take Trout off the guiding list. Better yet...let the guides get a real job!

Any of ya'll ever read Plugger by Rudy Griger? Pretty good book by a former guide and highly respected angler who helped form the GCCA later to become CCA.

Lots of factors account for the falling fish numbers. Including the freezes, commercial fishing, closing of the land-cut, and polution. Go to Amazon.com and buy that book for a good insight.

Aren't you being a little hypocritical...matter of fact, you are. Guiding is a job, they have to abide by restrictions, rules and regulations just like anyone else. Non-guided anglers also take trout and other species from our coastal waters and you're putting all the blame on guides. No, I'm not a guide, but if I wanted to hire one, that is my decision and option, no one elses. They do have a real job, they guide those that may not know the bay, gulf, lakes, rivers, have a boat or know-how and would like to learn from their experience. It takes a tremendous amount of money to do what they do, and should not be blamed for any one thing unless they are not following the rules or our regulations.

Maybe you need to learn how to catch bigger trout...seems like you might need to take a few lessons from a guide.

Better yet, I had the honor of fishing with him...a true old salt in every sense of the word.

i really like the limits in saltwater that say anything you catch, you keep. 8 trout limit. no release. at least when croaker fishing. I think half the fish you catch, you kill.

Soggy - where are you reading those regulations, not here in Texas.

There may be another possibility...some of us may recognize that we the fishing people are part of the problem.

You like math, do this math, add up the numbers of LMB caught in a typical tournament, then multiply that by the number of tournaments going on every weekend on every lake in Texas, then add the numbers of LMB caught with guides every day on every lake...why isn't there a huge problem with LMB? The answer is simple, catch and release, and a realization that even though LMB are renewable that are NOT indestructable....all about attitudes.

Consider if you can other places as examples...take Boca Grande for example. You probably can't count the number of guides fishing for Tarpon there. Yet, it remains one of the World's permier Tarpon fishing locations. The guides religiously protect the Tarpon. If you are inexperienced fighting a big fish, you better not fish with a Boca Grande guide.

Same is true in Key West. You better not fish in Key West with a top guide and kill a Tarpon, or a Permit, or a Bonefish....believe me it will be the last time you do that.

Same is true even in Mexico where the standards of living are generally lower...by and large sport fish like Tarpon are recognized for their economic value and protected by guides with everything they have.

Same in the Bahamas where bonefish are treated like a member of the family by the guides.

Same in Belieze and so on.

Try catching and keeping San Juan river freshwater trout....it won't be game wardens that stop you. In fact you will be lucky if it is a game warden. Other trout fishermen do not take kindly to seeing the resource killed....guides will resort to violence to protect the fish.

We need to change our attitudes. Specs need to be respected as a renewable resource but also one that can be destroyed. They are too valuable to rot in a trash can, be thrown out of a freezer because they are unedible, or slaughtered and laid out on a cleaning table for "pictures".


Ban the guides you say, that's foolishness and just p*ssing in the wind. Change attitudes and the problem will take care of itself.

I fish in a lot of locations in this country and in other countrys...and I can tell you for certain and with great sadness that the Texas coast attitude toward our great workhorse sport fish, the speckeled trout, is the worst of anywhere I have fished. That's the problem.

Meadowlark - you hit the nail on the head there friend! Great respone!

breambuster nailed padre too! But I find it hard to believe he would catch 500 lbs -in a night?- and then if he didn't c&r, what did he do with a 1/4 ton of fish?

But if he, as he writes, is catching 100 14" trout to get to his 10 keepers, it doesn't sound like there is a trout population problem where he's fishing! LOL

Meadowlark -those are two very good posts, but I think they will fall on blind eyes as padre is just trolling to stir it up.

He writes as though he just broke off a relationship with a guide or feels he was wronged on something.

Padre is absolutly correct, however, the guide lovers around here will argue to they are blue in the face. Just add up the numbers of guides on the water and times that buy 4-6 people and times that by 10, and like padre showed you get a whole lot of dead trout. Plus, its an every day thing.

There are way too many guides in the business and they cater to people who like to keep every fish they catch, and usually wouldnt catch so many if they were alone.

You can not tell me that the fishery is not effected. Every summer I see the toll first hand. My aunt lives on Alazan bay and the water out front her house is the secrete trout spot of all time. Untill about mid summer, the trout fishing there is increadible, with huge numbers of 20 inch plus fish. However, as summer wears on, and guide season is in full swing, the large trout begin to disappear. Due to the high gass rates, guides love to catch limmits as close to the boat ramp as possible, to save money. Our little secrete has been found out by several local guides and after about 2 weeks of them lineing the shoreline, you can not buy a keeper trout. Man it really ticks us off.

Though we do not own the water, it is our own little personal beach and what we feel like a private wading hole that we have fished religiously for 20 yrs. However, the guides will motor right up on us and even sometimes cut us off from the fish. Needless to say, it starts some pretty big fights.


Regardless, the over guiding in fishing does play a toll on the fishery. Just do the math!! My suggestion is a 5 fish limmit like in bass fishing. Also, I think that there should be a stronger push for catch and release like in bass fishing.

There is a 5 daily bag limit on trout down south and you can do 'Catch & Release' if you please. It's the anglers choice whether they want to do so or not...if it is legal, then they have the right to take their fish home as long as they are within the legal size and bag limits.

I've fished from the 8th pass at Washington Beach ( Mexico) to San Luis Pass my whole life. Pt. Mansfield has been devastated by guides fishing with Croker. I know the Croker boat owner who sells croker to the guides in Pt. Mansfield. And he told me how many hundreds of dozens of Croker he sells a day to the Guides. If you haven't caught trout on croker..get out of the debate because you can't understand how unfair croker are at taking big trout. They'll hit a live croker with 10 other baits in the water, including live shrimp. The guides have moved down from Baffin because they don't want to cach 100 14 inch trout for every limit ( 10 ) keepers they catch. Trout and Redfish were taken off the grocery store counters in 1986. They should have taken the guides off the list then. Sabine lake has gone to 15 fish limit this year..down from 25. This is because guides are devastating this great ( Big Trout ) fishery with croker..You can call me a guide hater, but the numbers don't lie. STOP the guides from Taking Trout FOR MONEY!

By the way, I was told that the 5 fish limit is no longer in effect. Reason Being, it was just too hard to enforce. It is too hard for anglers to determine the cut off or they would catch several in the area with a 10 ifsh lmmit, for example, a guy accidentally finds his way into the 5 fish zone and gets pulled over with 6,7,8,9 or 10 fish. There is then a big, and a little unfair issue as a guy that thought he was legal finds himself in position to be ticketed. For these reasons, I was told that they just put the 5 fish thing on hold. However, this is just what I was told and do not know if its 100% true.

My idea for trout limmits is to lower the number to 7, and lower the size limmit to 14 inches with a one fish over 27 inch rule.

7 is the happy medium between 10 & 5 and will help stop guides from double booking like they would if the number was only 5. Now, I suggest 14 inches because there are way too many trout in the 14 inch range and people would have an easier time of filling up that stringer and not have the need to keep larger fish just so that they can have a limmit. Hopefully, they get there limmit so quick that there wont be room for too many big sows. Plus, trout fillet way better than most fish like Drum or Reds. A 14 inch fish will still put off as much meat as a 16 or 17 inch red or drum. Upping the 1 fish only size limit to 27 inches is a consession to those who do not like the lowered limmit of fish. If you think about it, not many times do you catch multiple fish over 25 inches on a tirp. It does happen but just not regularly, plus they will have a stringer of 14 incher, making this just look good on paper for those who like to keep the bigones.

The number of guides and their take is taken into consideration when figuring the limits.....don't blame the guides, take your gripe to TPW and lobby for different limits if you feel so strongly.

The whole croaker argument is BS, it's the same argument that LMB fisherman used for years to try to ban live bait fishing for bass.....mortality is equally as high, if not higher, on lures....exponentially so if circle hooks are used.

Limits are limits, it doesn't matter whether you catch them with plastic, croakers, or dynamite....they filet up and taste the same, the same number of fish get harvested either way.

I suppose the HUGE increase in recreational traffic to the Lower Laguna Madre over the last 15 years had absolutely nothing to do with the decline in fish populations....I guess all those rec anglers release all their fish so they couldn't have contributed.

Careful what you ask to ban....I think outboard engines help anglers more than croakers....maybe we should ban those...think of how few fish everyone would catch with out an engine on their boat.

The tools available and the number of anglers all factors in mathematically to come up with a sustainable limit.

Most recreational angler are not fishing everyday with 6 other people all looking to limmit out, and usually doing so. Rec. anglers do not fish near as much, for the most part, and do not need to be put in the same category as guides. Recreational anglers enjoy the water for fun, and dont have the same intense need to catch and keep a limmit of trout.

Just like my example, we fish our little spot in Alazon for weeks, catching limmits of huge fish, but as the pack of guides begin to show with their croaker, the fishing always begins to decline with basic keepers turning up in short nubers.

Being a freshwater guide for stripers around Dallas I agree with the way the guides abuse the fish.I think that if you fish with a guide your limit should be cut in half.Because you have an everyday advantage over the guys that have to pay boat registration ,ins,gas,and all other things that keep you on the water.It takes away from the regular guys that pay to enjoy fishing.And definetly should not count guide limits to the total of fish kept.

Sassy, you are truely a standup guy for admitting the truth even though you are a guide. Like I said before, there are several really good guides that I personally like. However, the business is just way too crowded and depended on by too many around here to catch them their fish. For that reason, it is hard to have a genuine discussion about guides, and their effect on different aspects of fishing. Thanks for your honest info. on the issue.

I have a guide friend who limmits his guests to 3, throws artificial only for trout and red, tries to put people on drum if they want take home fish, and activly fights to keep boats out of the prime seagrass areas against the wishes of the guide community. He has been doing things a long time, but now has a great client base. This is how I wish all guides would act. However, most just try to book as many people at once as they can and get 10 trout and 3 reds for all of them to bring home. That is way to much fish and not necessary.

Again, thanks for your first hand input, and though I dont want you to hurt your business, drop in from time to time with your views. They are much needed around here.

Padre after reading some of your post you sure are a hater.Croker?your thoughts are off the wall.you cant go around blaming guides and other cause perhaps you dont have the same luck catching fish.almost seems like your not happy fishing?
I bet if your stringer was full you would not gripe.T.P.W
Thats who needs to address this problem[If theres one crokers]
anyway mellow out and have fun fishing.Good luck on your next trip.

rsgonza...I've had a long history of debate over Guides devasting the Trout Fishery. Freshwater guides are great. They do a good service. They protect the Bass Fishery and actually bring awareness to the propogation of the fishery. Trout Guides are just the opposite. You know it...everyone knows it. 100 guides taking 4 trips a week with 2 fishermen result in killing 16,000 trout a week. You think ANY fishery can stand that? Are you STUPID? And I wish it were only 100 guides. It is closer to 600! And that number is horrid!
I'm a working man myself. Everyone has his shot at the big pie. But Trout Guides are SELLING our natural resource ( Trout) and like Snapper, it can't be replaced. I started fishing Pt. Mansfield when I was 6...in 1951. I've seen the limit on trout go from no limit to 5 fish. Pt. Masnsfield is a :Fishing village". A bunch of farmers from Raymondville developed it. Baffin Bay guides started fishing Pt. Mansfield in 2002...when they finished depleting Baffin of Keeper Trout. The Trout Guides are doing the same in Sabine Lake...Limits are now down to 15 fish on the La. Side...10 in Texas water. But it is only a matter of time until all of the Laguna and Sabine are on a 5 trout limit.
15 years ago the GCCA , with its rich lobbists ( Perry Bass) got the F&G to limit Reds to 3 fish. Thanks to some TURD named Paul Prudhome who taught America how to "Blacken" redfish. The Water is literally FULL of Redfish! Do you think that 3 fish limit will ever be erased? Give me a break! Put the guides on a 5 fish limit per customer NOW. That will at least slow down the Trout Slaughter. And Put Pt. Mansfield and Port Isabel on the NO GUIDE LIST! These guides don't give a **** about the Trout Fishery for my kids or your grandkids. They just want to make $ 500 a day off some Smuck from Dallas who can't spell Trout.

Keep your posts pointed towards the Subject matter. Not the Poster. Personal attacks on the Poster are tiresome and juvenile. Agree to disagree, but be civil.

Puff, puff, give man!!! you're messing up the rotation.