Not to make any guides mad, I really like Capt. John Fails in a personal manner, but I think that too many people around here place too high an emphasis on guides.

I constantly see people asking for advice and they get replies like, "Hire a Guide!" Throwing money at a problem or issue is not the only way to accomplish something. I have never used a guide in my life and have always enjoyed successfull fishing experiences. Part of the fun of fishing is doing it yourself and learning things through trial and error. Plus, when doing it yourself the payoff is better. You will have a better since of accomplishment if you locate your own fish and find your own spots.

After reading some of these posts, I would feel doomed if I was new to fish and had little money. Guides are expensive and not everyone can afford to drop $600 for a fishing trip. I make about $60 k a year and I couldnt.

Trutst me, if you do a little research, and learn a little bit about the species that you are going after, you will find fish. Remember, if you caught fish every time you went out they would call it "catching" and not "fishing"

BTW, I do not mean to take any business away from, or offend any guides. Many of them are nice guys and I know they need to make a living. However, I think the guide talk around here is a little too much and this post is aimed at the little man that can not afford to pay someone to catch fish. Lets face it, things have gotten expensive and we are not all doctors and lawyers.

Believe me, guides make a HUGE difference...at least to get you pointed in the right direction.

You also have to remember, for some, your method works, for others (lazy, dumb people like me) need a guide to help, and they're willing to pay.

Wade

IMO a guide can actually be very cost effective. Example, someone that lives in Dallas and is a very good fisherman but wants to catch reds and trout in Galveston while down with the family. Though some places offer good walk in or wade fishing access, the bite might or might not be on there and finding honey holes could be hard. For a few hundred bucks or say even 500 the guy can hire a guide for half a day and get insider knowledge for future trips. Most guides that I know will gladly help you out with showing you spots during a trip that you could try wade fishing from or whatever. So if that guy spends $500 and catches a limit of fish in half a day then has the rest of the day for the wife and kids it is well worth it. Besides, what divorce attorney you know that will handle a case for $500 and I guarantee a fight or two has erupted from some poor dude wanting to catch fish on the family vacation and when he can't it gets personal and all his time is spent on a jetty or in the surf. Just my couple of pennies

Loopty.. go bore some other forum with your posts

People hire guides so they have an increased chance of catching quality fish and to learn how to do it themselves. So that they don't have to trample around the bay or offshore looking for the fish while they are on vacation or whatnot.

Not to mention many of the people requesting guides don't have boats, or don't have boats that they want to put in the saltwater. Sure you can wadefish but that's not what they want, they want our help to give them good info on guides.

Guides have boats and the experience of the bay and offshore and that is what these people are asking for along with what Chief BigRooster said.

Guides are a newbies or inland fishermans best friend. They are like reading cliff notes, someone else does all the work, you get the reward and a general understanding.

** Besides the little man has plenty of options, Party Boats, Half Day Trips, going in on fishing trip with a group of friends.



-Z-

Even though I have my own boat, I still will pay a guide for certain outings - most especially in an area which I'm unfamiliar with. Get alot of useful info from a guide that would otherwise take many trips to accumulate .. ends up being cheaper. (I like cheaper!)

I'd have to agree with croakerdrowner 100 percent. I worked on charter boats in texas and the florida keys for 6 years and i still charter boats, especially when i am unfamiliar with the area. Sarah were down in mexico over new years and even though i've fished over 200 days a year professionally for several years that doesn't mean squat when going to a new area. It definately pays to hire someone when fishing some place new because anyone can catch fish when they are thick and dumb but fishing with a pro makes all the difference when the conditions are tough. I haven't fished professionally out of Galveston for 6 years and if I want to go offshore I'll hire a boat. They do it every day, just like I used to. I am certainly capable of making it happen but that is a lot of running and looking if I haven't been out there everyday. If you think about wasted money in fuel, bait, accomodations,etc and more importantly time, it is definately worth hiring a guide to increase your odds and more importantly your education. can i get an amen....

See, this is exactly what Im talking about. None of you have ever caught a fish by yourself or ever found your own spots so you dont know how it feels to be self sufficient. Also, if you think that paying $500 dollars for a half day of catching fish is cheap, then you are spoon fed and live in a real nice world. Growing up, my parents could have never afforded something like that. However, it taught all of us to be self sufficient and we can go out on any body of water and figure things out enough to have a good time.

Bum, for you, I guess if you only fish once a year than you can save enough in your piggy bank to pay someone to catch fish for you. Im just fortunate enough that Im not in the position to have to do that. Maybee I should start fishing these redfish tournys that you bragg about. If you do so well than I know that I could clean up and own the thing right off the bat. My friends over here got a real kick out of your post where you talk about getting naked and jumping in the water, splashing around, and getting stung by jellys. Then telling me that proven techniques that every good fisherman practices are wrong and that you do not have to be quite while fishing the Tx flats. What a joke!!! Have you ever fished?? Or, ever taken a trip without a guide to tie your knots and pick your backlashes? I would bet not.

Look, I left you alone and quit worrying about you, but if you are going to find my post and start throwing personal insults, than I can to. Im sure you will tell a mod on me and I will be the one who gets in trouble even though you got on here and started talking smack in the first place because thats how things work. But, I could care less. Remember, I dont need this forum because I live right inbetween two awesome lakes and the best saltwater fishing in TX, I have a boat, and spend my time fishing them weekly. I do enjoy posting and trying to guide new fisherman but it is not my life, I have a real one.

Im out!! And again I will not carry on any further over whatever you have to say.

LooptyLoop makes a valid point relative to the sense of accomplishment that comes from DIY fishing. However, there are circumstances in which availability of a guide determines whether or not you can go fishing.

For example, we are taking the grandkids to Disney soon and I want to sneak away for some Permit and Tarpon fly fishing in Key West. There is just no practical way possible to do that without a guide in Key West.

At the other extreme, folks who rely on a guide to fish their home waters are really cheating themselves out of the full experience of fishing. Finding the fish, figuring out what they will bite, and taking them is a very rewarding part of fishing, IMO.

So, it all depends....both types of fishing have a place and everyone's opinion on the topic deserves respect.

Loopty Loopty Loopty..

A. You don't read other posts, or you can't comprehend what other's are trying to say, or you are simply to snobby and don't want to understand.

B. You seem to think there are SOME magical rules to fishing, in fact here you are talking about not hiring guides and such but you regurgitate everything guides have writen and taught about for years. If you admit it or not the way you learned how to fish was by watching and listening to others. You said it yourself a in another post that you spend your time reading saltwater mags, who do you think writes those article? GUIDES!

You're the type or person that says people shouldn't wear white pants after labor day or some BS like that. A real twit.

C. You seem to think I run around jumping in and outta the boat making splashes all day long, when I fish from a boat 95% of the time. When I do jump in the water is usually on dog day afternoons in the summer when the bite is down in crystal clear water and I don't feel like moving just yet. So I jump it, kick up a little mud and sand then go back to boat and wait quietly. What happens is the fish will find the muddy area and hide in there while they ambush prey. It's like anything, some times it works sometimes it doesn't. No different that waders walking to a spot then turning around and fishing the trail they kicked up. Only difference a boat gives a person the opportunity to leave the scene and camp out 40-50 yards away and wait, waders don't have the option.

D. You miss the point, you always miss the point. Proven techniques are fine, that's where I start the day, with lures that I know will work. However, there are no rules SET IN STONE that prohibit a fisherman from doing the unordinary. In your little world yes but that's just not so.




-Z-

LL--

You say you have never hired a guide, yet you seem to
be qualified to give other people advice on the subject ?

I take 2-3 guided trips each year, at least one to the
marsh country of La. I would not advise anyone to launch
at Delacroix and run out to Breton sound with out a guide.

If 600. is too much, invite a couple of friends,
now we are talking $200. I can't run my boat all day for
$200, and it is not a big boat.

" Hire a guide " is still great advice if you are wanting
to learn about a body of water or new techniques for
your species of choice. Hiring a guide just to catch a lot
of fish is a gamble, it is still fishing.

good luck

Mo

I would hire a saltwater guide if I am in a new area, for example Alabama or Florida coast. For Texas coast I think I would be OK without a guide. But if you are not familiar I would would recommend a guide. Always learned something from the guides I used so it pays to get advice from others.

Hiring a guide is a great idea for those who do not have that essential element.....tow-time on the water. For those who grew up on a certain body of water obviously have an advantage and can find fish on their own. Loop, I agree that finding them on your own is extremely satisfying, but some of us are just not that good to be able to find fish every time.

I think it is okay to hire a guide. However, I just think that the people around here, not all of you, rely way too much on them and have probably never caught a fish without one.

Bumpty Dumpty, that was also a weak analogy of me. Let me get this strait, you are saying that because I know alot about fish behavior, that I am a hypocrite for not overelying on guides who speak the same words that I do? All this means is that we both know our stuff, and I never said that guides didnt. There is a big difference between researching a subject and then going out and trying it yourself, than just having the teacher do it for you. As for your commebts about splashing around and not having to be quite while fishing the TX flats, you are the one that said the stuff, not me!! If you dont want me to think that this is how you fish, than why did you state that nonsense. If you were joking, than say you were joking. Personally, I dont think that you buy into a word of what you are saying, but like most of us fisherman, you are just too stuborn to back down now. I will admit I have found myself in similar situations before.

Its kinda funny, my best friend off this forum started off with me much the same way that you are now. I guess I struck a cord with you, and you did with me, but let it go. I mean, you are trying to dogg on me for making sound, proven, and tactical techniques to fishing. And because I think that anyone can catch fish under normal circumstances while using these techniques, without reliance on a guide. By all means, take a guide if you are going to the Amazon, but if you are just going out to Galveston or Port A for the weekend, use your own abilities and save the money on better equipment. You may strike out the first time but will knock it out the park after a while.


To Mo, you dont have to be a guide, or use one, to know what you are talking about. Like I stated before, I get off my butt and do a lot of fishing, and research my craft when I am on the pooper or something. Any good fisherman knows the same basic concepts, other than that any information that I have from guides comes from what I read in every post from yall.

Once again, I have no personal problem with guides and see the value of taking them out from time to time, though I never have, its just that I think that many people here rely to heavily upon them and should just be big boys and do things yourself.

LooptyLoop,

I see your point well as I, too, take extreme satisfaction in finding fish on my own.

But, there is a time and place where a guide is essential. If I take a trip to Mexico, I don't think I will trailer my boat all the way down there. Also, I don't think anyone could find a boat, at least a sea worthy fishing boat, for rent to captain yourself. In this instance and many others, it makes financial sense to hire a guide.

Another instance where hiring a guide is a 'good' thing is when trying to learn a new body of water. Example: Joe Average lives in DFW but likes to fish the the area around Rockport. Joe may only go once a month so it would take him years learn how to safely navigate the water and learn the water. So, Joe hires a guide 2-3 times during different seasons of the year to figure thigns out a little quicker. From there Joe understands how to safely navigate these waters and finds his own fish.

Guides are also good for the guy who doesn't own a saltwater boat and only fishes saltwater a few times a year. This particular type of guy may be a professional bass fisherman and be an expert fisherman. Could he find fish on his own? Sure he could, but he doesn't have the right equipment to do so. So what is $1500 bucks a year compared to maintaining multiple boats to fish multiple different species? That $1500 is nothing. The list could go on and on about the different things needed to fish for Trout, Reds, Flounder vs. Bass fishing vs. Snapper fishing vs. fishing for Pelagics like tuna, wahoo, dorado, and bill fish.

Again, I agree with you essentially, but your financial reasoning is questionable.

For the average guy who doesn't live on the coast or near the coast or dedicate his time to the coast it is CHEAPER to hire a guide.

Then there are guys that have boats that they are able to bass fish, striper fish, bay fish, and go offshore on good weather days. I have one of these boats and I have done all of those things on my own, but I do not have a high and mighty attitude towards others that want to hire a guide.

Personally, I haven't fished with in a long time except for when I went to Cabo around Christmas. I was in Cabo San Lucas with my family and wanted to get out for a day. I was not going to be happy fishing from the beach. I was in Cabo San Lucas and I wanted to catch Dorado and Marlin. I hired a guide. I had fun and it cost 1/100th of what it would've cost me to get my boat down there for 1 day of fishing.

In short, there is a need for guides in this world.

I started this thread but hope that a moderator shuts it down so that we can just move on. I mean I sit here and state several times that there are times and places for a guide but people just cant see this and I am tired of hearing arguments that I agree with. I merely said that way too many people rely to heavily on guides because it is the easiest thing to do, instead of putting in the work themselves and accomplishing more.

By the way, I dont know about in other places on the TX coast, but are bays here around CC arnt like advanced level rapids or anything. In most cases, if you just follow the markers you will be alright. I have heard that the Nueces bays is one of the most dangerous and I have been navigating that bay since I was like 2. All you have to do is stay clear of the oyster reefs which are clearly marked.

LooptyLoop,

sorry to reitirate. I was in the middle of typing my last post when you posted.

I think we can all agree to disagree as I see this is going nowhere, which is obvious by your last post.

You think everyone doesn't get it and I don't think you get it either.

There is a difference between running a bay since you were 2 and never having seen the bay before, which is where a lot of these folks come from.

Hope you have a good weekend and catch a bunch of fish on your own.

I'm headed to the coast this weekend to hammer the Reds with some buddies!

once again another one!! I dont get, yea I guess I dont. Its pretty hard to realize that Im in the minority of people that like to catch there own fish. Once again, I understand that guides are good when going to far off places, or for people that do very little fishing at all and wish to catch a limmit. However, there just not the only option and that is what you dont get. Have you ever changed your own tires or oil before either? Its a little tricky at first but if you follow some simple rules like, "lefty loosey and righty tighty," you will soon get the hang of it. See ya out there, alone!!!!

This whole thing is stupid. Loopty are you sure you are not a licensed guide?

I guess you could say I'm bias....but difference in the amount of fish we bring in compared to those who are unguided is quite ridiculously. That alone proves a guide is necessary.

say hello to josh temple for me...

Yea, Im a guide that says people use guides too much, thats smart!! Geeze, sometimes I wonder why i even try with some of yall. Plus, I garuntee you that I catch just as much, if not more fish than you and any of your guides. Howver, I realize that the average joe, like you, will catch more fish with a Guide. Thats not what the post is about. However, you will not learn how to fish by yourself and will never get the self reliance to acomplish your own fishing feets.

However, you can just take the easy way out and just throw money at a situaion that you know nothing about. Healthy cll!!!

Someone is pretty cocky! Guaranteed eh? Mmmmmk!

First off, that post was aimed at the person talking mess. I would never just start talking smack to anyone that didnt deserve it.

Second, you are a guide, so anything that you have to say on this thread is completely biased.

this thread is worthless

Anything you say on this thread is completely biased also since you have never hired a guide you have no knowledge of what goes on during a guided trip...your just completely biased on the other side.....
you forget that a guide guides for a living and we started guiding for the same reason you choose not to use a guide...because we love it! we Love teaching others how to fish, how to locate them and what to look for...passing on things we had been taught by other fisherman....... sorry but you had to learn from someone...rather a father, friend, book, even if it is a Tv show...you did not invent fishing ...it is a shame that someone that is so good at fishing like you cant teach others to do the same. Instead you choosing to belittle those who want to hire someone for knowledge is pretty low...I am just a part time guide and do it because I love to fish! And people paying for my gas gets me on the water more.... I donated a dozen or more trips last year to people or organization because I want them to learn to fish for themselves and share the fun of fishing....I pull up to fishing spots all the time to find one of my past clients setting there fishing...that does not make me mad it makes me glad.... I told myself I was not going to post because it was not worth it.....but maybe you should look at it from our side before you start ripping someone.....as a A guide and speaking for those that I know we are continully learning and passing on what we learn to each other and to those who fish with us....You seem to feel like you are a self made fisherman that no one ever showed you a thing ......you know thats not true ...you have taken from someone knowledge ... let those who want to do so and those who dont wont...why not join in and share some of the same knowlegde with others instead of causing such a stink...

First off, I never ripped any guide and stated that specifically. I like many guides and have no problem with the profession. My problem is with the emphasis that people around here place on them, like they are the only solution to learning how or catching fish. Is that an untrue statement? For you, a guide, it may be a statement that you dont want people to know, but it is true.

Also, I have not ripped anybody, and I help more people around here than about 3/4 of the people that post. I give up spots all the time and have taken time off to personally help out and go fishing with several newbies on this forum. You do not know me and I dont know were you get off by making personal statements about me. I made personal statements about nobody untill they insisted on makeing them towards me. Like you have.

Once again, for you that cant understand a concept. I have no problem with guides, just the over emphasis on guides that people have around here. When I see someone asking for tips and for some various spots, I would like to see real feedback, not that they should "just hire a guide". It makes me feel like I am the only person around here that cranks up the boat and goes out to hunt fish by my lonesome. It is a good thing and very pleasurable to get that feeling of self reliance. Is this a bad thing? Have I trashed you? No!! So please do not make comments about me because you have no idea who I am and how I treat others. The only thing you know about me is that I do not use guides and think that people should try to catch fish by themselves more often. All I hear is guide this and guide that and I am sick of it. This is my opinion. If you want to state yours than do so but dont call me out and try to embarrasse me because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, I said that I learned how to fish by researching and just going out and trying it. I never said that I was just born with the knowledge and that no one showed me how. However, I did not have to pay for it. I believe that many people can have success the same way that I do, and do not need to pay for the right to catch fish every time they want to go.

My whole reason for posting this was to let people know that they have what it takes to catch fish themeselves. You have a problem with this because you want to make money off them. I just hate seeing people think the only way to have a good time and catch fish is by paying for it. You can research, for free or just a couple of bucks,anything that you need to know. Its sad that people just dont want to work at anything anymore, and this is how I feel about it.

There are many times when taking a guide is perfectly necessary or feasable, just not to the extent that people around here feel it necessary. I know that I am in the minority around here, it was obvious before this, but I am not ripping you and the only people that I have ripped started by personally attacking me.

You have to list all the times you help someone for free like you deserve a medal. Like I said, you dont know me or what I do and you have no right lableing me. But since, you made such a deal about it, I take people out every weekend and just got back from the lake with a few people an hour ago.

It ticks me off to hear you say I dont help anybody when I fish like everyday, and everyday post a report on how I caught them, so that people can do the same. However, I have been mostly bassing lately so you just dont see it. But still you talk. READ MY ABOVE TWO POSTS AS WILL. Man, you struck a cord, BTerry!!

[quote=LooptyLoop]See, this is exactly what Im talking about. None of you have ever caught a fish by yourself or ever found your own spots so you dont know how it feels to be self sufficient.


That is where you are wrong. I fished for a living for 13 yrs. Don't pay guides as the norm but would not be against it. To each their own and I understand why you don't wanna pay a guide. I personally would rather find fish myself but I'm not gonna bash on someone that wants to.

LooptyLoop,
Sorry for personally attacking you ..I am sure you are a stand up guy and do alot of good for those you take out fishing....I will not try and defend my actions I responded to your post unfairly not knowing you personally....Sorry once again...

.


That is where you are wrong. I fished for a living for 13 yrs. Don't pay guides as the norm but would not be against it. To each their own and I understand why you don't wanna pay a guide. I personally would rather find fish myself but I'm not gonna bash on someone that wants to. [/quote]

Geeze, I wish people would read the original comments before they go off arguing against me on thing that I agree with, or saying that I am bashing people. Dont take comments that I have made in response to somebody talking trash to me, and use them as part of your argument that I am bashing everybody that uses guides. My only problem here is that I feel that there is an over reliance on guides on this forum. It is an opinion, one where there is some truth, and I did not bash anyone is my original comments. I guess said what I said, and if anyone took offense, than maybee its true.

If you dont agree, than read the thread, post that you dont think there is an over reliance, and why. Dont personally attack me and dont read a responsive post to somebody getting personall with me, and use it to say that I am bashing people.

Fot the umpteenth time, I agree that guides are usefull and appropriate at times. In fact, I am friends with many, and send business their way. I am just trying to give good advice to the members of this forum that they too can catch fish with out a guide. I feel that many of yall do not believe that you can and rely to heavily on guides to put you on fish. There is a problem on this forum, when people ask for basic help and are told to hire a guide. I wrote this in response to hearing just as such.

BTW, BTerry, is a good and intelligent man. Disregard anything I may have said toward him, as he has taken the highroad with me and I respect him. People can disagree on issues without having to get personal with eacher and he now understands me, regardless if he agrees. Once more, I only think there is an over reliance problem, and dont want to personally bash anyone,

Go back an reread some of your own comments and I think you may get a better understanding as to why people responded they way they did.



Are you kidding? First off, that comment reads like you are one of the few capable of catching their own fish - in other words, it just reads like arrogance.

Most of the people on this site do find and catch their own fish. Most of the information is provided by average anglers.

We do consider guides an asset to this site and a good way to learn, but your comments in no way reflect what is the norm on the TFF.

J.P.-

I want to thank you for your above comments. I was going to let this go, but I wanted to thank you!

The arrogance it what gets me stirred up. Nothing wrong with being confident, but there is a fine line between confidence and arrogance.

Thanks again!