Had some family over at the house for Sunday dinner, all are very avid deer hunters and casual bank fisherman but aren't in the know about tournament fishing or the new sonar technology. Had the Fork event on and their take on FFS was, "that's cheating", "shouldn't be allowed in competition". Just a casual observation from some non biased outdoorsman. Makes me wonder if this might be the standard view by most not entrenched in the sport, what do yall think?

I think like most things it'll be split. I've heard that's bad a$$ and also Dam that's cheating!

If I had to pick one I would say most would call it cheating.

By the time I get one it'll be obsolete. Lol.

No worse than feeding trophy deer 24/7 , then shooting them 50 yards away LOL

They all hunt low fence but do bait.

if you use food plots or feeders to attract deer and cameras to determine their feeding times,would that be cheating and "deer shooting" instead of deer hunting?

Exactly

Honestly if they are not involved in the activity or tournaments then I'm not overly concerned with their opinions on it. They obviously have zero time using it and a very basic or even limited understanding of it. Casually they are free to think what they want. People who don't use it tend to think kooks it's push and play. It's not.

Oh look, another ffs thread. Found your dead horse

Tell your avid deer hunters to put away their guns,, throw a corn cob with a hook in it to their deer. Convince the deer to eat it, then reel the deer in.

Hiding and shooting a deer from a blind in a baited area is cheating.

Those that don't or can't usually hate on the unknown.


It's sadly the American way

Get over it already.

That's the best ever LOL

I do have to laugh at all the so call deer hunters I know here in Oklahoma. 99% of them have corn feeders set out somewhere. They drive to their spot and wait until that buck shows up and bag it. They wouldn't last 5 minutes hunting deer in the Rockies where I used to hunt deer and elk. You are up before daylight, hiking up a mountain, walking the ridge lines, glassing slopes, checking out ravines and creek areas. If you do spot a deer/elk you want and you shoot and hit it then the work begins. You have to get it out. You may be several miles from camp and the terrain is not easy to pack an animal out. You quarter the animal and pack it out on your back with a pack frame. It may take you all day to do that.

Now the guys from Texas that would come to Colorado to hunt were something else. Big horse trailers, squad size tents, the whole setup. Drinking all night, maybe getting out around noon. Rode their horses in a few miles in the middle of day and seeing nothing. Stop by our camp and wanted to know where we got our deer/elk...:) Couldn't believe we hunted on foot...:) Best reply I ever heard was from a Marine buddy I used to hunt with.." Jim Beam ain't gonna do your scouting or hunting for you". We'd have a beer after everything was done and our animals were back in camp. Just our unspoken agreement to do it that way.

Now that is real hunting...not the corn feed hunting style that I see around here. To each his own I guess.

I assume these family members are all 100% spot and stalk hunters to make such claims.

I enjoy tourney fishing, both watching and competing. That said, tech was getting a bit much for my own personal enjoyment way back in the late 2000's. I sold my Alpha 211 and downsized. Later I moved to kayaks and went back to fly gear for 90% of my fishing.

I enjoyed watching these guys do their FFS deal over the last couple weekends. It has been informative, imo. I just don't want to play that game, myself, when I get on the water. I appreciate what they're doing, though. I do see where there could be legitimate considerations for limiting this stuff in competitive environments, but I guess that all depends on what kind of product you're looking to produce as the promoter.

Tournament fishing is a tiny percentage of fishing....it's a public resource though....so sooner or later, if the wrong people get pisses off, you never know what could happen....I personally think Tournament fees that are substantial should be paid for these things.....and any other Tournament of more than 20 boats should require a permit by the county......guide license is a joke and it's a grossly oversaturated deal on these public resources....wish that license required a 1000 $ fee and insurance of 250k..... FFS is just a symptom....our society is driven by shortcuts and instant gratification.... go watch a high school Tournament..... can't even compete without be able to spend considerable money....so, it's just that, driven by money..... makes me want to throw up

Tournament fees should pay for what? It’s not like they are leasing the lake/ you are more than welcome to pull up on a pro and fish right next to him.

Yeah, that will fix it, more government regulations. SMH

They probably have cameras that link to their phone so they can see what's hitting feeder every day also.

for a small phenomenal fee I can take your buddies out fishing and give them a FFS lesson.

1000%

I don't care one way or the other, but I don't think it is cheating. No more than a hunter using a scope on his rifle.

Have you ever used GPS, lake maps or 2D, SI or DI sonar?

Lmao you would be the first guy on the forum crying because some recreational angler was in some jack [censored]’s spot or to close .

You have me confused for someone else, I’ve been on the water fishing during elite events.

It's not cheating because they all do it, or can do it if they want. I will say that I think it makes breaking all-time records less impressive.

Justin Hamner said when he caught the 11-7 that he had seen that fish all four days and kept coming back until he finally caught her. It occurs to me that if Roland Martin or Denny Brauer had fished a tree in 10 feet for two days without a bite he wouldn't keep running back there on days three and four to fish it.

You guys can deflect all you want, I'm just saying what I observed from impartial viewers. And I bet most others might have the same re-action.

FIFY

...and you guys shoulda heard the comments when I showed them the Zaldain video of the electronics setups for the Bassmasters Elites, can't post some of that language here Some people in the industry need to take a 1000 foot view.

All I hear is you're too technologically challenged or too broke to afford it. Thats pretty much the only group crying about it.

Heck even I thought some of those set ups were ridiculous and I am all for FFS. I like the toys!

How would they know much about any of it to start with?

You should not use it then.

I'm gonna scope up 5 bass and filet them in honor of this post tomorrow

You ain’t scoping up 5 fish. That’s pro level kinda stuff.

How bout 25 crappie and 1 bass.....

That’s much more realistic.

Don't have it but if I did I sure wish I was good as the young guns Would not give a dam what anybody said about it

Every “casual” fisherman I’ve shown or explained FFS to have said one of two things… that’s cheating, or that’s not fishing.
I’m not an FFS hater at all, really enjoying learning it. The hunting references were funny. It’s like taking a thermal scope out at night and shooting bedding animal 1/4 mile back in the woods from the cab of your truck. Straight sniping!

exactly, how is ffs any different than si or di tech? all 3 will show you fish the trick is to catch those fish, good luck with that.

I have it and don't consider it cheating any more than having si/di since all 3 show about the same thing.

Yep more government regulations........

All these casual and non-anglers weighing in makes me wonder. Since when does anyone care WHAT they think? Most of them would tell you it’s insane to have more than 2 rods, throw back fish instead of frying them up, or cheating to use side-scan and scent infused baits like power worms.
Since when are they the great deciders?

Exactly

It’s not cheating the competition but it’s cheating the sport. There’s a reason why the elite fields keep getting younger. It used to take years to learn to pattern and predict fish. Not anymore.

And if Deer hunting was a competitive sport with a league, then I would say get rid of baiting, high fences, and game cameras for them. The rest can use it as they see fit. But it’s also cheating the sport.

No it’s not. All these ridiculous comparisons. You don’t shoot bass with your lure, the livescope doesn’t identify bass, it identifies an object swimming in the water, you have to free hand cast a lure in their direction and they have to decide to eat it.

Yeah, because these kids just instantly get qualified for the BASSMASTERS, you’ve been on there for how long now?

Whole lotta complaining boils down to:
“Learning to catch fish was difficult for me because I didn’t have the helpful tools that are available today. Therefore the tools are bad, people who use them are cheating, and GET OFFA MY LAWN!”

I really don't feel that's an accurate representation of the rub that people are having with this.

It seems pretty close. They keep throwing in deer hunting or spotlighting arguments- those folks aren’t worthy of a response as their fake comparisons are so far disconnected from livescope.

Most of the people that bass fish and especially tournament fish can't catch sh** anyway. Most could not cash a check if you put 25# in their bathtub

someone explain to me why ffs is any different than SI or DI.

Because the people who cannot catch them anyway do not understand how much of an advantage SI and DI are because they cannot catch anything unless it's spring time on a bank somewhere.

Because people who like sight fishing for bass in the spring when they're at their most vulnerable are somehow opposed to doing it with electronics when they're less stressed and at risk.

Because there probably is not a logical answer.

Seeing the fish react to lures and baits, in real time, is a huge difference between SI or DI.

This is pretty damn profound right here. The same crowd that cry's it's not sporting probably loves themselves some bed fishing.

Either way you are seeing the fish and using technology to do so. It's like arguing that it's OK to get drunk on beer but not whiskey.

I think a lot of people don't realize how difficult FFS is to use. I have fished with multiple FFS gurus including JJ. I know exactly what they are doing and how they do it. I have FFS on my boat and most days if I use it, I do WORSE than if I don't. Certainly, in terms of numbers.

1. You have to move to find fish. If you aren't ultra proficient with your trolling motor and boat control you wind up going so slow you never find fish or so fast you over run them when you do find them. Otherwise, you try and stop the boat by reversing the trolling motor and then can't relocate the fish you stopped for.

2. You have to be able to tell what you are looking at. For most people what they see on the screen, especially at first, it looks like the code from the matrix. Distinguishing a carp, a catfish, gar, or a tilapia from a bass is not easy. Even harder is determining size of the fish you are casting at. JJ could tell the size of a bass to within 1 lb when I was with him. Some lakes, including my home lake, are so full of trash fish everywhere you point the transducer there is a wall of fish. How do you tell the difference between a 5lb tilapia and a 5lb bass? It's not easy. I once asked JJ what he thought the biggest mistake people were making using FFS was and he said wasting time casting at 12lb carp. Another hot west texas lake that is putting out tons of DDs right now is so full of crappie, millions of them, that unless you have an ultra-trained eye its near impossible to distinguish a bass from all the static.

3. Once you find a fish you then have to be able to make the perfect cast at a fish that is likely moving from a boat that is likely being blown around in the wind.

4. Once you make that perfect cast you have to keep the fish and the lure in the small cone of the transducer to be able to see what's going on.

5. Once you've done all that you have to present the right lure (one you can actually see with FFS) to the fish.

6. Once you've selected the right lure you have to present it to the fish in the right way. Sometimes that's a steady retrieve 6 feet above them. Sometimes you've got to drop it right on their nose. The variations are limitless.

7. After all that, you've still got to get the fish to bite.

About the only time it's "easy" is when there are no trash fish, no wind, and they'll hit an A-rig. I do quite well in those situations which is about 2% of the time.

It's 10X harder than most people think.

I’d have a five pound dead fish penalty.

SI/DI is a picture of what “was”….past tense, history….FFS is real time live. Big difference.

100%


Only thing is if you put in enough TOW and do master this technique, you can use it and win 12 months out of the year with 1 pattern/technique, where that would be nearly impossible with almost any other technique.

It’s a different pattern technique if you have to use a different lure

I have only been on boats with FFS while fishing for hybrids/stripers. I have zero experience while fishing for bass. using one ( hopefully soon though) My take is FFS will make good fisherman better and bad fisherman confused. I will say that for me fishing for stripers/hybrids it was almost to easy once I figured out what I was looking at but I wouldn't say it was easy. One thing that striper fisherman have always done is be able to fish open what and distinguish different species of fish. I can't wait to learn how to use it fishing for largemouth.

Excellent post. I have been trying to catch with FFS similar to what I see on Bassmasters/MLF and having a tough time. These are excellent points and speak the difficulty of it.

But once you can do all that, you're better than the Greg Hackney.

Your list, although difficult, is certainly doable. The problem is once you are able to do all those things you are far more efficient and better at capturing 5 big bass than even the most experienced and talented of bass pros.

It's far easier to learn the steps you describe and utilize them rather than spend an entire lifetime learning the art of bass fishing through trial and error.

This tool totally levels the playing field.

What’s the problem with being better than Greg hackney? These guys aren’t gods..

I have no problem. I love FFS. You sound happy.

This is a well written version of what I have been trying to say as well. I have spent at least a hundred hours trying to not suck at FFS for Bass The naysayers just don't have a clue how hard it is.

There is that term again. The “ART” of bass fishing. If someone figures out how to kick your butt working smarter instead of harder then maybe the art wasn’t as good as originally thought. Why do folks assume these newer guys don’t know the “ART” of bass fishing as well? I’d be willing to bet that 19 year old could whip the majority of the folks in here without FFS. Not to mention the time he and others have put in to hone their skills with FFS through the same trial and error you claim the artists only use.

McKinney is in the latest issue of bassmaster where they drop a guy on a random lake with no practice and do an article. He ran all over the lake and caught fish using a variety of techniques.

The olds haven’t realized that the secret to fishing, is to fish where the fish are. They like to throw at nothing.

That’s me.

Won't be long before we have full 360 degrees livescope with drone tracking. Put your goggles on and see every fish within a hundred yards. 😁

Your old guy is showing

I feel fundamentally restrained that electro-fishing isn't allowed for recreational anglers.

Spot it n' shock it.

Are we allowed to tag bass, for research purposes of course; with a metal tag with a very strong sonar return so we can see them better on live sonar?

I was pre fishing a tournament a few years back, run down a bank about 100 yards and don’t get a bite. Well here comes a boat I’ve never seen before and it was the fisheries department shock boat. He shocks that water and I was amazed at how many bass I had fished thru- he was scooping them up as fast as he could…🤷‍♂️😂

I've seen a guide release a fish with a long length of mono tied to a balloon so he could follow the schools in open water..........

Are there rules against that?

if he had FFS he would not need that trailer park tracking device

Only if the balloon/mono set up is for "research purposes"?

several years ago got invited to observe a sprayboat on Eufaula (Al.) in spring of the year.......couple real interesting observations....we did several miles of electroshocking along east bank of eufaula in lower part of the lake....the shock boat shocked almost no bass or fish along bare banks but if there was grass/weeds exrending out from the bank,they shocked up numerous bass,crappie,catfish and carp many of which were probably bedding in the grass.......
I was in my boat using trolling motor to stay a little ahead and out from the shock boat....when we would pass grass beds,I saw numerous large bass swim out of the grass to deeper water before the boat got close enough to shock them...they probably shocked up over 200 fish of all species that I saw come to the top and many of them got away before they could be dipped up....

Opinion only.

I think it takes away from fishing. Two of the biggest challenges I faced in tournaments was the question: Did my fish leave the area or am I throwing the right bait? Do I move now since the fish may have moved or do I wait them out?

These are strategic questions every angler asks if they are seriously trying to catch fish. FFS will tell the answer and in my opinion takes a lot of the strategic thinking out of fishing.

Why does an angler need a crankbait for all depths any more?
Why does an angler need a ton of rod and reels with different actions, different types of line, and different sizes now?
Why does an angler need search baits that cover water?
The list goes on and on.
Answer from watching TV on any recent Saturday, they don't...

Everyone has a different opinion but this is mine.

Guys mad on here probably get mad they can’t compete with the FFS guys because they spend too much time griping about FFS rather than going fishing! 😂

That’s a solid take on the subject.

We all get an opinion, I respect yours, I’ll just counter and say that livescope doesn’t change all of those things- it may make it faster to solve the puzzle, but as we have seen with our own eyes the past few weeks- it’s still a very difficult puzzle that few can solve…

If any of the guys going home without cashing a check had the skills then they would’ve used them.

I was out today and using crankbaits with FFS.
Still need and use different depth divers.
Still search for fish.
They’re hard to spot among rocks and weeds.
Still a lot of casting and looking around.
It’s not all like you see on tv.

"Deer Hunters" right???? So they set up a feeder for the deer to come to and eat before deer season so they get used to coming to it. Then they set up a deer blind that blends in with the surroundings , put on oils that cover the human scent so the deer won't smell you, you sit there with a high powered rifle with a scope and shoot the deer when it comes up to eat. HOW IS THAT NOT CHEATING, THAT IS NOT HUNTING, THAT IS AMBUSHING DEER. So based on what they said about FFS being cheating, did you tell them that they need to leave the gun at home and chase down the deer and kill it by hand. See how well they do at that.

They are NOT IMPARTIAL viewers like you say. Ask them why they cheat at deer hunting but think FFS is cheating in fishing. I guess your "impartial hunters" think it is ok to cheat shooting deer but you should not use FFS for catching fish.

That is my "non biased" opinion of the deer hunters you speak of from an impartial viewer.

You mean you weren’t out shooting 8 pounders with your lures like all the naysayers here suggest?

Good post.
IMO-(def could be wrong)-FFS used correctly in the right hands IS WAY different and obliterates competition(on average over time) who don’t or can’t use FFS as adroitly. I sure the heck know it makes a huge difference for big bass fishing.
And FFS is pretty cool imo. These young guys are dang good-I’m amazed watching them. It’s not cheating because anyone can use it-so anybody that wants to compete better get really really good at it.

Amazing, right?
Some people make out that if you use FFS, you’re glued to the screen, wiggling a crappie jig on a spinning rod all day because they see tourney guys doing that. It’s just a version of the sonar we’ve all been using for decades. SHOCKINGLY, I was also able to watch the flocks of sandhill cranes migrating north, a great blue heron stalking the shallows, pelicans flying inches above the water in huge v-shaped formations, and baby turtles bobbing along in a shallow bay.