I saw a big debate on social media. Essentially a young attractive nurse was choked to the point of passing out by an ICU patient. To be fair to her she was very empathetic in general. She said she had been abused by patients before, but never like this. She called the police and tried to have the patient arrested for assault, but the police refused to arrest the person. I think the devil lives in the details, but what does the OT think? Should patients be held accountable for their actions? Where does the line get drawn? (Gals name is Ashley Leilani Schade if you want to search on facebook for the full story)

patient is guilty

My dad has told me a few times that he would like to have strangled his nurse! Ripped his catheter out like she was trying to start a lawn mower is what he claimed.

Why wouldn�t the patient be arrested? Assault is assault


Now in court, being guilty is something else. Is the person sane? Etc.

Patient should be charged with assault.

She�s hawt.

Being a patient is scarcely an excuse to assault someone.

It depends on if the patient was in their right mind.

Where this thread is headed

My wife has been a nurse 22 years-
My daughter has been an ER nurse for 7 years, including 5 years at parkland hospital in Dallas.
Both have told me stories that are very very upsetting to me from time to time-
NEITHER of them have ever considered legal action-
They have always said that medicated folks are not in their right mind at the time-
I admire that about both of them-

Yep.

So if an 85 year old dementia patient who is afraid and confused because he doesn't know his kids names or his name should be arrested and thrown in prison for hitting a nurse?

You�re subscribed to zdoggmd too.

Saw that this morning. I don�t have enough caffeine in my system for a real discussion yet.

Obviously every situation is different and independent of the other. A little logic and common sense when dealing with each case will give you a better answer.

As a wise man once said about 25 years ago as I was a setting into EMS/public safety, "you ain't whipping my arse for $28,000 per year".

Having some recent experience along this line - 3 times in the past month - I can tell you that removing the catheter in short increments is far worse than a quick steady pull that only lasts a second or two. Plus, it's much better if you are standing or sitting on the edge of the bed/exam table so that "everything" is in a vertical alignment. Laying on your back so that "everything" is horizontal is much worse.

Sundowners, dementia, etc.... Sometimes they have to restrain them

Any nurse can tell when a patient becomes violent due to altered mental status. Assaults/threats generally occur when a patient or their family member wants something they can�t have due to policy or medical orders.
Assaulting a medical provider should be a felony.

That name does not appear on YouTube.

If patient is conscious of and in control of his actions then he is also responsible.

Hope the ballon was deflated.

Yes, the devil is in the details.
If this nurse was chocked to the point of passing out, it most assuredly sounds like assault to me. I have to wonder why the police refused to arrest the perp?!?!

I couldn't pull up the story. A link would be appreciated.

The effects of coming out of anesthesia can make some folks say/do some really weird s***.

Details without pic:


September 18 at 7:21 PM � Walla Walla, WA
As many of you know, I was assaulted by a patient while at work on Sunday. A patient that I had cared for and dedicated myself to for 12.5 hours a day for three straight days prior to this. I wasn�t home with my family, or out having fun, I was doing what God called me to do, to care for those who are at their worst. Most patients in the Intensive Care Unit are unstable in many ways. Hemodynamically, emotionally, and mentally. Most of us have been hit, kicked, or pushed out of the way of a scared patient who is trying to run away. Being in the ICU, or the hospital in general can be a very scary thing. Mental illness is also a scary thing. I have never hated someone for the injuries I�ve experienced while they were scared or not thinking straight. I�ve never pressed criminal charges before this, because I�ve tried to put myself in their shoes and do what us nurses do best, be compassionate. But on Sunday it was my turn to be scared. Let me tell you, having a strong individuals hands around your neck, the inability to breathe, let alone call for help, to the point where you can�t see a thing and can only hear an emergency �staff assist� tone going off, is one of the absolutely gut-wrenching, most terrifying feelings anyone could ever imagine. It didn�t help that it was preceded with the words �I�m gonna kill you.� It was also followed by a confirmation that this individual was not only aware of what they had just attempted to do, but also �if anyone else comes near me I�ll kill them too� followed by a smirk. I had collapsed and was taken to the emergency department, so I wasn�t present for the arrival Law Enforcement, so I can�t speak to that. What I can speak to is the sickening feeling I got when officers came to my ER room to get my statement and inform me that they are unable to take this patient into custody. Instead, said patient gets to stay at the hospital, where my coworkers/friends/work family are forced to continue to put themselves into harms way and care for someone who just tried to murder their friend. Do you know what it feels like to know that someone who just tried to kill you isn�t even being arrested?

I�m sorry..but excuse me, when did my life become so INVALUABLE that someone can try to take it away, and not be taken into custody???
Let me ask you this, if this happened in front of you on the street, would you expect that person to get a slap on the wrist and get to continue walking down the sidewalk? How safe would you feel then? What if it was a teacher, a cashier, a police officer who was assaulted? Do you think their assailant would get to go upon their day like nothing happened, and not be arrested and taken into custody? Or should we wait and have a psychiatrist come do a mental evaluation first to decide if they should be held accountable? Should we have someone evaluated before getting arrested each time we have a domestic violence call? What if they aren�t mentally stable? As I sit here still trying to process the nightmare from Sunday, the debriefing yesterday where I saw some of the strongest nurses I know break down into sobbing tears, and the emotions that have filled me since I questioned if I was going to survive that moment or not, as I wait to hear if the Deputy Prosecutor will �be able to� file felony aggravated assault charges, I can�t help but feel angry and disappointed at how little rights we have as caregivers, and how little our lives are truly valued. I know the bruises, the sore muscles, and the loss of my zest for life will take time to heal, and I can accept that. I�m not only hoping and praying for healing for myself and my coworkers, but for some kind of CHANGE in how sexual harassment and physical and verbal abuse in healthcare is handled and tolerated.

I�m putting this out there to bring awareness of what is happening in hospitals. Not just in big cities, but right here. Just because you are in the hospital does NOT MEAN THERE ARE NO LAWS AND NO MORAL RESPONSIBILITY. It is not a stupid series of movies where you get a free pass to be an [censored] for a specified amount of time. ITS REAL LIFE. You cannot strangle people. You cannot sexually harass people. You cannot hit, kick, bite, scratch, spit on, or call people names. And by people I mean those folks who sacrifice time with their families, their bladders, and their SANITY to care for you in every single way. IT IS NOT OKAY.

Nurses are fueled on compassion, because Lord knows we don�t get lunch breaks and the money is nothing compared to what we have to deal with. I can guarantee you that there are at least 8 amazing nurses and nursing staff who�s compassion for what they do has been greatly compromised from this event, and that in it�s self is tragic.

#endnurseabuse #endhealthcareabuse #notyourpunchingbag
#zerotolerance #silentnomore #ICUstrong #ERstrong #nursestrong #nurseadvocacy
#nursefamily #timetorally

That being said, THANK you from the bottom of my heart to those who have reached out and for all of the continued support. And words can never explain how grateful I am to my work family for your quick actions and unwavering support. We are a team and I love you all...we WILL make a difference so that we are safe at work. 👊🏼💔

Her complaint is that he wasn�t taken into custody, it seems like, not just that he wasn�t arrested. The police arrest people in the hospital all the time, but they don�t take them into custody because they need to be in the hospital. The man apparently needs to be in the ICU (although he sounds like he is lucid, strong and mobile) so I don�t see how she expects them to take him into custody and remove the threat from her friends and coworkers.

Thank you to nurses, EMS, other first responders, etc who deal with this on a daily basis. It takes a special person to put up with all you do.

Thanks for that.

Agreed.

I can understand someone who is heavily medicated not being consciously aware of their actions. I once kicked a nurse across the room while coming out of anesthesia (I now ask for restraints when the dr is going to use anesthesia now so it doesn't happen again).

But otherwise, no excuse for it.

^^^^^^^^^this to

If he is in "custody" then restraining him is much easier.

If you are in the ICU and hitting nurses I've got to believe the vast majority are not in their right mind. Either from medication or mental issues.

He should be arrested and sentenced to be used for clinical trials instead of using a chimpanzee.

I�m not sure I follow. She makes it sound like she wants him removed from the hospital. That�s how I�m reading the word �custody� in her post. Maybe, legally speaking, she means custody in a different sense, but it sounds like she wants the police to arrest him, take him somewhere for booking, like jail or at least some sort of other hospital �to protect her friends, coworkers, work family...�

There are issues, I imagine, about patient�s rights and being moved to another hospital, especially if you�re in ICU.

You know more about this than I do. I�m not arguing, I�m genuinely curious.

And she (smartly) doesn�t say what is wrong with him or what medication he is on, which might explain why he was violent. That, to me, changes things. Is he of right mind? Or was it a reaction to medication? A lot of variables here, but I�m hesitant to say that every hospital/ICU patient who becomes physical with a nurse should not be arrested or taken into custody (custody meaning physically removed from the hospital) when there are extenuating circumstances.

No offense to nurses or first responders.

I agree 100% here. The lack of those details seems very odd to me. My answer here is that this is not black and white. You can't just go arresting and removing people. People would die and there is no "justice" as at least some of these folks were not in full control of their facilities. Nursing is a very tough under appreciated job; zero doubt. No nurse should ever be physically assaulted. That said, to some degree this risk comes with the territory. A patient of sound mind? They should be arrested the moment they are released.

If he is under arrest/custody then he can be handcuffed to bed etc. It is much easier for law enforcement to restrain him than it is for chemical or soft restraints by hospital staff.

Even a criminally insane patient can be charged with assault on nursing staff under certain conditions, but it is very rare from what I've seen. Having a patient arrested is the last thing a hospital would want to do in my opinion.

Got it. I agree with you. It still seems like she is wanting him out of the facility, but maybe not.

Legally, I don�t think she can give out patient medical history (such as ailment, medication, etc) so that�s why she isn�t giving out the details.

Once the police arrest someone they become a ward of the state and the cost of needed medical care is provided by the taxpayers.They could arrest him and cuff him to the bed. Then all of a sudden they would have to tie up resources by providing an officer to guard and an open checkbook to pay bills. It is not uncommon for low level prisoners to be admitted to a hospital and the police all of sudden decide to release or drop charges.

There is a problem here. Giving out any information that can lead to anyone being able to identify a patient is a violation of HIPPA. Since a few hundred people can with certainty identify this guy she could indeed have problem. This is why it is best to be suspicious of these type of stories.

Interesting.

That�s the info I was looking for. Thank you.