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#12745219 - 05/06/18 12:16 PM Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
I've been reading about one of the new Lithium Ion battery chemistry. They are LTO or Lithium Titanate.
One of the newest nano technologies and these batteries are used in some of the latest hybrid and electric cars.

They have some very significant advantages over the regular Lithium Ion batteries in that:
They are safe. They have not started a fire.
The have a higher temperature operating range.
Their life is significantly higher with over 10,000 charge cycles.
They can be charged at a very high rate, from full discharge to fully charged in 10 minutes.
Their charging efficiency is 98%.

Normal batteries, flooded cell and AGM are useful to only 50% of the battery energy before the voltage falls and they don't work very well. The LTO and I think the regular Lithium Ion both use 100%. That means a normal battery which is used for trolling service normally is around 100Ah. A Lithium Ion can be 50Ah and have the same useable energy.

I found a place that sells a 2.4v 30Ah cell that is made to be used in parallel series. 10 cells for 24v and 15 cells for 36v. The cells sell for around 68 dollars a cell so 680 dollars for a light 24v system. Double that for a system rated 60Ah which would be plenty for anyone. Same for the 36v system, 1060 for the 30Ah system and 2120 for the 60Ah system. These are metal encased individual cells so using these the weight is not as light as what I would want. For a 60 Ah 36v system it would weigh 110 pounds,plus extra weight with the strapping to put them in parallel series and a battery case.
You could also buy off EBAY some of the used batteries coming off some of the wrecked cars using these batteries and create a usable battery for much less, also knowing you may have an unknown lifetime. With the large number of cycles however this may be the cheapest route. I don't know.

Anybody heard of these? A person in the golf cart industry was building custom batteries for his boat. He could taylor them for different uses from engine starting to running the AC.



Edited by Allison1 (05/07/18 07:23 AM)

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#12745244 - 05/06/18 12:52 PM Re: LTO batteries ... [Re: Allison1]
irbf Offline
Angler

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 253
Loc: Van Alstyne/Texoma
Placed in "parallel" will not work. They must be in series.
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#12745245 - 05/06/18 12:57 PM Re: LTO batteries ... [Re: irbf]
Cast Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 8267
Loc: North Texas - God's Country
Originally Posted By: irbf
Placed in "parallel" will not work. They must be in series.


Not sure I buy this.
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#12745247 - 05/06/18 01:00 PM Re: LTO batteries ... [Re: Allison1]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
Thanks for the goof I made. Series.

These could be a lifetime trolling motor battery. The 10,000 cycles I said is on the low side. 20,000 is possible so you could spend 2100 dollars and not worry about a trolling motor battery for a maybe 20 years.
https://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technology/Lithium-Titanate-Oxid-Battery-Cell-LTO-2-4V-30AH.html
Here is a link to a 2.4v 20Ah cell.

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#12745943 - 05/07/18 07:26 AM Re: LTO batteries ... [Re: Allison1]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
These, I believe will catch on eventually.
Good thing is that anyone right now can go looking for these batteries and configure them to size and voltage to work for starting batteries or trolling motor batteries.

They have very very low resistance. A simple 5 cell 12 volt battery that weighs around 10 pounds will spin a boat motor faster than most group 24 batteries.

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#12745976 - 05/07/18 07:51 AM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
Jeff From Iowa Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/07/18
Posts: 165
Originally Posted By: Allison1
I've been reading about one of the new Lithium Ion battery chemistry. They are LTO or Lithium Titanate.
One of the newest nano technologies and these batteries are used in some of the latest hybrid and electric cars.

They have some very significant advantages over the regular Lithium Ion batteries in that:
They are safe. They have not started a fire.
The have a higher temperature operating range.
Their life is significantly higher with over 10,000 charge cycles.
They can be charged at a very high rate, from full discharge to fully charged in 10 minutes.
Their charging efficiency is 98%.

Normal batteries, flooded cell and AGM are useful to only 50% of the battery energy before the voltage falls and they don't work very well. The LTO and I think the regular Lithium Ion both use 100%. That means a normal battery which is used for trolling service normally is around 100Ah. A Lithium Ion can be 50Ah and have the same useable energy.

I found a place that sells a 2.4v 30Ah cell that is made to be used in parallel series. 10 cells for 24v and 15 cells for 36v. The cells sell for around 68 dollars a cell so 680 dollars for a light 24v system. Double that for a system rated 60Ah which would be plenty for anyone. Same for the 36v system, 1060 for the 30Ah system and 2120 for the 60Ah system. These are metal encased individual cells so using these the weight is not as light as what I would want. For a 60 Ah 36v system it would weigh 110 pounds,plus extra weight with the strapping to put them in parallel series and a battery case.
You could also buy off EBAY some of the used batteries coming off some of the wrecked cars using these batteries and create a usable battery for much less, also knowing you may have an unknown lifetime. With the large number of cycles however this may be the cheapest route. I don't know.

Anybody heard of these? A person in the golf cart industry was building custom batteries for his boat. He could taylor them for different uses from engine starting to running the AC.




Wont work if your not talking about deep cycle batteries.

Automotive are not deep cycle, they all run a charging system, they are not made to be run down and re charged like we would do with our trolling motors...... I contacted a large ebay seller who specializes in pull out lithium car batteries and he sent me a long drawn out explanation about this.

I thought I was onto something with the auto batteries... bummed I wasnt.


Edited by Jeff From Iowa (05/07/18 11:25 AM)
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#12745994 - 05/07/18 07:59 AM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
BMCD Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 4108
Loc: Katy, Texas US
Lithium sulfur will be the next big battery technology. It's already being used but not by consumers. Should reduce the cost to build a battery. Lighter and more power density.

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#12746547 - 05/07/18 03:16 PM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
You might be right but the person I first learned this from is in the golf cart industry and the make battery packs for golf carts with them. That is the lithium titration battery.
Even as a starting or main battery they are very good. A person tries out a 5lb 12 volt pack that spun the starter faster on his Yanmar 360hp diesel than his group 31 battery.

I am at work right now but will put up some specs when I get home. Off the top of my head I think it said you would lose 20% of capacity after 6000 cycles where you draw the battery down 80%. That sounds like it would work as a trolling battery.

http://www.scib.jp/en/about/index.htm
Here is a link to a popular name brand battery with specs.

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#12746687 - 05/07/18 04:58 PM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
206champion Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 2342
Loc: Decatur
This is interesting, so what is the price.
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#12746817 - 05/07/18 07:09 PM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
bigfish76 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 217
Loc: Montgomery TX
I work for Toshiba with large size Uninterrupted Power Supplies (UPS) we do back up power into the multi mega watt systems. Our SCiB (super charged ion battery) technology is the lithium titanate. We have had it for several years now and have 100k plus modules in use today. It is a great technology and very safe and self healing built in battery management system per cell. It is expensive but the prices have dropped drastically over the past 5 years and we expect to be very competitive in the next 2 year from an cost of ownership perspective. Currently we are offering our customers 12 years warranty on the stationary side of products and I hope the next move for us will be automotive solutions. This is a product we are very excited about. From a reliability and safety point it is awesome. You can check out “SCiB nail test” on you tube for a cool video. I have access to enough cells I am going to build a set for my boat and test them out in that environment. I will update as I go.

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#12746819 - 05/07/18 07:09 PM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
Ok did more reading from the other site. It appears Lithium Pro uses these cells to build their batteries.

On ebay you can buy the 2.3v@20ah battery at 6 for 206 plus 69 dollars shipping and 22 dollars for any additional packs.
So to assemble a 36v system at 20 amp you need 15 batteries. To make it a 40 amp system you would need 30.
So for 5 packs of 6 you spend 206X5=1030. Plus 69 and 88 for the other 4 packs. 1187 dollars for one battery for a 36v@40ah battery.
Thats just the individual batteries and they add straps to use for multiple battery systems. You still need a case.
Then you worry for X years to see if what you built last long enough to justify the expense.

An error I made earlier was in weight. The pic he had of his battery was 15lb1oz, not 5 pounds. My mistake. That was for 12 cells which was configured 6s2p so two sets of 15 volt batteries. He had to discharge them a little for them to work. I would just use 5 in series which should be close to the same voltage as a regular battery and one you could use with your regular charger.

You can also find these batteries off of cars. I believe these are salvaged cars but with their life they still have more life than most people would expect in 10 years.

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#12746821 - 05/07/18 07:11 PM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 18454
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
Thanks bigfish. Here is the thread that got me started.
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/911947-building-lithium-batteries-my-boat-2.html

Jeff, there are numerous lithium chemistries. These seem to be the ones that are both safe and capable of deep discharge. The same argument is made early on in this thread.

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#12747288 - 05/08/18 07:33 AM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
Jeff From Iowa Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/07/18
Posts: 165
Originally Posted By: Allison1
Thanks bigfish. Here is the thread that got me started.
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/911947-building-lithium-batteries-my-boat-2.html

Jeff, there are numerous lithium chemistries. These seem to be the ones that are both safe and capable of deep discharge. The same argument is made early on in this thread.


No argument here, just telling you exactly what the largest lithium recycler in the the USA told me about wanting to use any configuration of cells from him in my boat..

I read a little of that thread just now for you I stopped when the original starter stated you dont need a special charger. Because in fact you DO need to have your charger modified if you want to charge them to full capacity. Its 75$ to send in the charger out of my boat to have it changed for lithium. If the original poster is incorrect on this or he just doesnt care about reaching full potential or full charge then he isnt someone Im interested in learning or receiving technical advice from.
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2017 Phoenix 920

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#12747499 - 05/08/18 10:04 AM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: Allison1]
skeeter75 Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 87
Loc: Bronte, TX
I had Lithium batteries. Worst investment I've ever made! 4200.00 for 3 batteries in a months time left me stranded on the lake 4 times, if I was out for any link of time.


Edited by skeeter75 (05/08/18 10:05 AM)
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#12747528 - 05/08/18 10:25 AM Re: Lithium batteries new LTO chemistry [Re: skeeter75]
shotgunwilly Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 818
Originally Posted By: skeeter75
I had Lithium batteries. Worst investment I've ever made! 4200.00 for 3 batteries in a months time left me stranded on the lake 4 times, if I was out for any link of time.


Those are not the type of batteries being discussed in this thread.

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