No affiliation, for starts, but I wanted to mention that Luther Cifers from YakAttack, sort of a design guru in the kayak industry, has gone into the business of creating some new kayaks. His first two will be shown at ICast 2017 and some early photos have been pre-released.

There will be a 10+ footer and a 12+ footer with pretty low pricing points.

One innovation is really cool. His team has designed some "standing pads" I suppose you'd call them on top of the gunwales sort of just left and right behind where the seat is. So, a nimble guy or gal can hop up and sight fish from an elevated surface. That, and though I haven't seen it, I read that one or the other of these vessels will have sort of a bass boat seat option so I suppose that might mean some sort of pedestal seat.

These paddlers are supposed to be super stable and pretty fast. It looks to me like their sort of bullet shape gives the kayak a nice sharp point to cut through the water, then a wider stern area for stability.

See below for some pics and details. Brad

Bonafide Kayaks

I'm looking forward to paddling one myself.

They sure are pretty

Looks badass! I would love to have one

Id like to find out what their version of fast is. It does look stable.

Christian, one article mentioned that it paddles at 2.5 to 3 mph at a, I think it said, moderate pace.

I think it debuts at ICAST today so we should know more soon.

Brad

IMO they look a little like the Hobies or am I just blind?

Very similar to the Hobie Pro Angler yaks in dorsal view and layout. Convergent evolution. Different bow shape in lateral view.

Looks pretty good from the video.

Similar to the Raptor's version of speed. (sorry, I couldn't resist)
I'll also add it doesn't appear to track too well in what few "paddling" clips there have been.



I was thinking WS ATAK.

The more I see videos of it, the more I think this is a niche kayak where Cifers really went out of his way to accommodate the stand-up angler, especially those who might want to sight fish/use push poles/fish skinny water. Almost all video talking points about the Bonafide come back to or relate to stability.

He gave up a lot and perhaps did so to secure a place in a crowded field of available kayaks.

Brad

What makes you think the kayak would only be good in skinny water? I agree, I think stability of this kayak is going to be a great characteristic of this boat. As I get older I'm finding myself looking a stable kayak that will not turtle as easy.

I think the trend is stability more than overall speed, and also the popularity of pedal power and trolling motors seem to be another major trend.
This kayak looks like it would be able to feature all those upgrades if he wanted to go that way.

Well, not only skinny water . . . but sort of best suited for it is what I am thinking. I could see this kayak in the flats fishing Florida.

It'd work in deep water, of course, but without a stock rudder, I wonder if it would track well, hold well, move well in wind and waves? It is pretty "low" so that would be in its favor for not catching broadside winds. Heavy waves might lap over its low profile. It sort of reminds me of some of the Wilderness yaks in that way.

Yep! Other than I guess tourny kayak fishing where one might want to race to a favorite spot to get there first, I think speed is greatly over-rated compared to other factors like stability. The Bonafide has super secondary stability but Cifers defined its initial or primary stability as "loose" I believe and I think he did this to improve paddling where a slight roll is preferred for a kayak to move with the strokes.

So far, I STILL haven't cruised along beside any other pedal model kayak in what I'd call sort of a cruising speed and noticed much difference in pace. I've pedaled right next to a PA 14 and we move at almost the same speed side by side. This means to me that for shapes common to fishing kayaks, hull speed is a great equalizer. Top ends do vary, but not so much just under normal power.

I think the Bonafide will catch some "shelf space" and sell just fine.

Brad

I spoke to people at I-Cast that have got paddle around in and are impressed with the tracking. I use to look down on motors and peddle drives. As I get old they are looking attractive!

Primary does look a little loose. And that step-up sight fishing deal looks stupid IMO. Too hard getting too and from it.

Agreed, and that looseness could be an issue with many people who rarely actually take a kayak very far into its secondary stability zone. A feeling of tipping left and right sitting in a high seat is "off putting" to many people. And, it never goes away. It'll feel, I think, like sitting in a kayak designed for racing speed.

Yep, I'd say those "perch pads" as they are being called will be used by a very slim percentage of its eventual owners . . . and by very slim kayakers, too. Ha! Luther did some little maneuver where he flipped the seat back down or something, was facing forward, and sort of walked his feet back up and on the pads, then he stood up from there. But, many folks won't be limber enough to do that. I could see some wiry and light kayakers hop up there but I don't see all that much advantage . . . not certain what the heck one would do with a 10 lbs. bedding bass on the other end of the line and trying to land it.

I want to see Chad Hoover get up there unassisted.

I follow lots of brands, am always interested in innovations and how they are accepted by end users/buyers. Some work some don't, some work and don't sell.

A good price point, I think this one will sell but it is fighting a very powerful trend toward pedal power. Just think of all the pedalers introduced since last year.

Brad

Yea, I haven't been able to get in it yet, But I'm not sure if the stability will allow me to get in the "perch pads" ether. My balance is absolutely terrible. I loved my Ride135 and could stand in it. But couldn't ever feel comfortable standing and fishing. I know a lot of people that can stand and fish in them all day long. I guess my old age and being "fluffy" isn't a good combo.

"As I get older"! Man do I resemble that remark!

I am 6' 7" 250 lbs so stability is way more important to me than speed.

I went from an Ocean Kayaks Trident Prowler 13 to a Jackson Kayaks Big Tuna and now to a Hobie PA12.

My wife said something about people who add trolling motors to their yaks and shaking her head about it so I took it as a sign that the Hobie should be the next step.

I have a bum knee from years of playing ball and a couple injuries so standing up on a yak is out of the question.

Stability!.....One reason I probably won't ever upgrade from my Commander120. It's mainly the stability and ease of getting in and out of it that at my age and stiffness, I can't justify changing from what works for me.

I have a Commander 140 and feel the same way. It is supper stable even for a old fat dude like me.

I fished out of a friends SOT about a week ago and it's a stable one, and maybe I'm spoiled, but there were a couple of times on the water I didn't feel that security like in my Commander. Us old fharts have to make too many adjustments, so we need that extra stability for forgiveness.

AMEN

Here's a complete walkthrough I did of the SS127 at ICAST.

Nice walk through!

Did Hans Nutz leave Wilderness Systems? Could be why this kayak looks very similar to the ATAK

And, I note that Chad Hoover was all over and around these Bonafide kayaks. He was active with Wilderness, too, and was found all over the ATAK 120 and other models one year ago at ICAST 2016. Did he jump ship?

Interesting!

Brad

He and basically the entire Confluence design team. Jake Fuller went with him and a couple of their engineers.

Not sure Chads involvement if any but he and Luther have been good friends for years so I can see him just being there for support. There has been several people including reps jump over to Bonafide. I'm a big Wildy fan but I will have see how this turns out. Great team over at Bonafide.

This kayak doesn't interest me at all. Perch pads, really? You're already standing, do you really need that extra 5 inches?

Long skinny yaks are my style and I've never felt tippy in one. Owned hobie adventure and Trident 15.

There are a lot of good features in this kayak. Seems kinda shady going to another company and recruiting its employees. Imo. I hope thats not how things were done. We can all pick apart this yak all day but at the end of the day its a wide, stable yak that caters twards stability,,,not bad, a safe first couple models. In todays market it seems everyone says they want to stand all day and fish but in reality most just stand to take a leak or streach the legs. I also have to stand long enough to get bait but after that im sitting most of the time. Ive also seen a trend of gadgets on kayaks. It seems the more colorfull things you can work into a kayak,,,realistically functional or not means sales. We all have our own way we need to fish and im sure this yak will fit into some kayak anglers needs, at first glance, not mine. I need a yak that can cover water. This is gonna be a shorter range yak.

That said...i like competition in the kayak world. It forces improvement with all companies.

It's these kind of developments that contributes to the popularity and growth of kayak fishing.
That in it of itself is a win, win, for all of us!

We haven't seen the end of the innovation, either.

But, interestingly, there seems to be a cap on the top-end pricing: around $3500 seems to represent the high range folks are willing to pay for kayaks. Yes, a Hobie 17T is much more than $3500 but they don't sell a lot of them either.

At $3500 for just a well-equipped "off the show room floor" kayak, I suppose the range of "after purchase adds" would be anywhere from $500 to $1500. At $1500 plus $3500, one is suddenly at $5000. This is before we then move on to fishing tackle and the expenses there.

I think $5000 is about as high as they can take us. At that level, actually much lower, you target market really diminishes. Even though I, and others, don't necessarily want a boat, we seem to show some resistance to paying boat prices for kayaks.

These new Bonafide kayaks can likely capture some market share as they are in the general price range that people will spend for a paddle-only yak.

One thing that might be an issue? Cifers and his team designed these kayaks with almost ALL considerations related to stability in the secondary phase. So these kayaks will feel very loose in a seated position. Even though as these kayaks tilt and encounter the secondary stability, will the feeling of tipping over be off-putting? I agree with another post that while many do stand often, if you just watch videos, tournaments, what you see at the lakes, irrespective of what is claimed, most kayak fishing is performed seated. Few of us fish the flats of Florida where standing for site fishing is more common. And, seasonally, if you are bed fishing, this is just a sliver of a year.

I agree with the perch pad idea being, well, sort of an after-thought where the designers just threw it in. Few will use it, I suspect, few CAN use it . . . failing the flexibility test to get up there. And, once you snag a fish, what then? How do you get back down with a fish flopping around in one hand? Acrobatic requirements.

Brad

I agree with what you are saying, and probably causing boat manufacturers to be looking over their shoulder as the kayak market may be starting to eat away at their sales.

There is no one perfect kayak. That's why I have 5. This kayak has its place. There are some good things about it and some bad. This is just the beginning and I'm looking forward to see what's next. Luther is the king of gadgets and his design team is top notch. If you like touring, fishing offshore, inshore, rivers, ponds or lakes, I bet there will be something for you in the coming years.

Funny thing too, you can get a real good boat (used) for the price of some of the kayaks today.

Absolutely agree, and they have their place and always will.
I've owned a motor powered boat for the majority of my adult life and still do, but they can be a pain to maintain, store, upkeep, whereas a kayak to two are three are a lot less so, and a lot more fun in my opinion.

Jimbo, you are correct about the boat makers looking over their shoulders. But, if so, if kayaks are really causing them some stress, we should see lower prices. I am uncertain whether this has happened or not.

Since aluminum boats are often less expensive, these manufacturers have plenty of room to drop prices. Aluminum is way down in price, MUCH lower than it was 10 years ago. So is copper. See any savings passed through?

Plastic is largely made from petrochemical stock, same thing here I think.

***Todd, I think Luther is great on the gadget side, for sure. It is danged tough, as you know, to make any substantial improvements in hull designs. Boats have been around for thousands of years . . . they are at the point where all they can do is tweak them a bit, at best. I personally see nothing, not a thing, that is all that leading edge on Luther's hull design. What he seems to be doing is simply "moving" the scales, so to speak, where he has sacrificed primary stability to a greater degree to supplement secondary stability more so than other kayak makers. But, any one of them, I'd imagine would have known how to do that.

Aluminum prices below. Brad

You would think that the boat manufacturers would start seeing a trend and make their lower end boats more attractive by adding some built in accessories and such.
I don't think they would lower the price, but maybe some add on's to entice the buyer.
Upper end kayaks are fishing machines, while the lower end boats are more utilitarian being as plain as dry cereal.

Kayaks have been around for about 4000 years. The white water modern kayak less than 50 years. Plastic roto-mold less than 50 years, Fishing SOT kayaks less than 40 years. Hobie introduced the Mirage pedal drive in 1997. Standing design kayaks we use today around 10 years. No I don't see much new hull designs coming but computers and testing pools are changing ship design today and ships have been around for a long time too. The future will bring some new designs or maybe more user friendly with nicer bells and whistle. It's insane how much has changed in the last 5 years. Just 5 years ago there wasn't any of the cool things we have now thanks to Luther. I had to use milk crates, PVC, and drill all over my kayak to mount things. Go try a Jackson Cuda if you want to feel loose primary stability and strong secondary. Jackson has been doing it for years. I personally don't like loose primary so I will have to see. Everybody talks about this kayaks primary stability like they have already tried it. I never said a thing about this kayak but that it has some good and some bad. I said I'm looking forward to see what's next. That design team has designed some of the best quality and top selling kayaks on the market. There is a future for Bonafide IMO. As I always say-DEMO DEMO DEMO! I will demo this boat then I will decide if I like it or not. Not that I'm looking for a new kayak. Just like seeing what's hot or not.

Todd, sure, I agree with almost all of your comments. There won't likely be any "significant" improvements in hull designs in terms of speed and stability, I think, maybe some tweaking left to get another few tenths of a MPH, a tiny less wobble. What will likely change the most is all of the add-ons that Luther and others have developed. Wow! What an explosion.

Posted elsewhere, speaking of Jackson and your mentioning its Cuda and loose primary stability, it is bringing out a 12'1" model named Liska that will be 34" wide to address stability. Price point is expected to be $1349.

Brad