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#12281201 - 06/06/17 12:27 PM Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening
FishGardener Offline
Green Horn

Registered: 06/06/17
Posts: 4
I'm wondering if anyone has ever harvested carp for historic/organic gardening? Native Americans would put a fish in each mound when they planted corn to provide nutrients for the plants as they grew. The methods for use are a bit more sophisticated these days, but they do make good organic fertilizer.

I've seen hordes of carp along the shore at Joe Pool Lake so thick you could almost walk across them. As these are non-game fish, could they just be dip-netted out of the water? I'm assuming there is no bag or size limit, either?

Is there any issue with transporting them to the farm while still alive (in a barrel) so they don't start to stink on the trip?

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#12281310 - 06/06/17 01:26 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Cast Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 7259
Loc: North Texas - God's Country
It's sorta illegal.
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#12281314 - 06/06/17 01:27 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
FishGardener Offline
Green Horn

Registered: 06/06/17
Posts: 4
Are there other lakes in the DFW area with high carp populations? I live NW of Fort Worth, so closer would be better.

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#12281315 - 06/06/17 01:27 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
dmunsie Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 2009
yah...I get it... but wow.. it just sounds crazy in a sport I enjoy, where people use fish that could do alot more good for the sport than become fertilizer. I love catching those Joe Pool 8-12lb Carp on ultrlight gear, some of my best angling memories for sure. But with that said.... if there ever was a place in the DFW area that could use a little Carp thinning out, it would be Joe Pool Lake. To answer your question, yes you can take all the carp you want, using your dip net. No bag or size limit. But if you do net one that is substantially larger than the others, would be great if you could let that one go. Thx.
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#12281318 - 06/06/17 01:29 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
dmunsie Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 2009
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#12281325 - 06/06/17 01:32 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
dmunsie Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 2009
Originally Posted By: FishGardener
Are there other lakes in the DFW area with high carp populations? I live NW of Fort Worth, so closer would be better.


Every lake, river, creek, etc has Common Carp in them. But nothing comes close to the over populated population of Carp in Joe Pool Lake in my opinion. Once you see them spawn in the shallows at Joe Pool, well..it's really one of the most amazing sites I've ever witnessed.
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#12281338 - 06/06/17 01:36 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: Cast]
FishGardener Offline
Green Horn

Registered: 06/06/17
Posts: 4
What part of it is illegal? Carp are classified as NONGAME fish.

According to:

http://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoo...evices-for-fish

Cast Net

A cast net is a net that can be hand-thrown over an area.

Legal only for taking NONGAME fish and other aquatic animal life including crabs, crayfish, and shrimp. (See shrimp regulations)
May not be greater than 14 feet in diameter.
In SALT WATER, nongame fish may be taken for bait purposes only.

Dip Net

A dip net is a mesh bag suspended from a frame attached to a handle.

Legal only for taking NONGAME fish and other aquatic animal life including crabs, crayfish, and shrimp.
May be used to aid in the landing of fish caught by other legal devices.
In SALT WATER, nongame fish may be taken for bait purposes only.

So please tell me what part of catching carp with a net is illegal?

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#12281358 - 06/06/17 01:45 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
SharkBaitTV Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 08/06/12
Posts: 983
Loc: Texas, Earth, Milkey Way
"Lawful Archery Equipment
Lawful archery equipment includes longbow, recurved bow, compound bow and crossbow
May be used to take NONGAME fish only.
Any fish that is edible or can be used for bait (includes all gar species, common carp and buffalo) may not be released back into the water after being taken with lawful archery equipment. See Waste of Fish."

"Waste of fish
It is unlawful to leave edible fish or bait fish taken from the public waters of the state to die without the intent to retain the fish for consumption or bait."

"Sec. 66.011. LEAVING FISH TO DIE. A person commits an offense if the person leaves edible fish or bait fish taken from the public waters of this state to die without the intent to retain the fish for consumption or bait."
[img]https://scontent-dft4-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=59E33496[/img]
[img]https://scontent-dft4-3.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=59DAED66[/img]
its not legal not even close.


Edited by SharkBaitTV (06/06/17 01:45 PM)
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#12281384 - 06/06/17 01:54 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Cast Online   content
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Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 7259
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I said sorta because I think it's a good use for the remains. But keep and eat the fish. Or not. Your call. Fish emulsion is way easier.


Edited by Cast (06/06/17 01:55 PM)
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#12281400 - 06/06/17 02:01 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: SharkBaitTV]
FishGardener Offline
Green Horn

Registered: 06/06/17
Posts: 4
SharkBaitTV - I believe the intent is that you don't just spear or shoot a bunch of fish with arrows and leave them to die in the water or on the shore. Using the fish as fertilizer is not wasting the fish. It would be converted into food.


Edited by FishGardener (06/06/17 02:33 PM)

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#12281408 - 06/06/17 02:03 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
SharkBaitTV Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 08/06/12
Posts: 983
Loc: Texas, Earth, Milkey Way
state the law that says that please.
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#12281446 - 06/06/17 02:21 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
dmunsie Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 2009
When it comes to the law, SharkBaitTV is without a doubt 100% right.

"Waste of fish - It is unlawful to leave edible fish or bait fish taken from the public waters of the state to die without the intent to retain the fish for consumption or bait."

But if we're talking Joe Pool Lake, I don't think any game warden would have a problem taking a bunch of those fish out. But when in doubt, give the local GW a call, tell them what you want to do. They may issue you a temp license or permit to take a bunch of fish out of Joe Pool.
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#12281503 - 06/06/17 02:54 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
JJ4MEL Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 1137
Loc: Celina/Prosper, TX
Use corn, catch carp, use carp to grow corn then use corn to catch carp again. Wow, what a vicious cycle.

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#12281603 - 06/06/17 03:49 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Laker One Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/11
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#12281842 - 06/06/17 06:23 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
ScottEvil Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 9286
Loc: Bastrop, Tx
Yup, illegal to use for anything but bait or consumption.
I hear Home Depot has plenty of fertilizer for sale.....
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#12282271 - 06/06/17 10:33 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Jerod Pontello Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 03/14/16
Posts: 111
Got to b some type of population control, not very many people keep carp to eat

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#12383457 - 08/12/17 02:27 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: dmunsie]
rickt300 Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1273
Loc: Alvarado, Tx, Johnson
Originally Posted By: dmunsie
yah...I get it... but wow.. it just sounds crazy in a sport I enjoy, where people use fish that could do alot more good for the sport than become fertilizer. I love catching those Joe Pool 8-12lb Carp on ultrlight gear, some of my best angling memories for sure. But with that said.... if there ever was a place in the DFW area that could use a little Carp thinning out, it would be Joe Pool Lake. To answer your question, yes you can take all the carp you want, using your dip net. No bag or size limit. But if you do net one that is substantially larger than the others, would be great if you could let that one go. Thx.


Actually harvesting any Carp seems to get the Carpers panties in a wad! They want no control over Carp for virtually any reason. Whitney is another lake that needs at least some harvest of Carp but everyone says throw them back! Throw the big ones back but keep the smaller ones, stop contributing to the mess overpopulation of Carp causes (or any fish for that matter). There really does need to be some management of Carp, the bowfishers can't do it all. If you think Carp are such a wonderful fish make some effort to manage them before it has to be done on a massive level. Joe Pool could use some commercial netting of it's Carp population for sure and it wouldn't hurt Whitney either.

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#12383887 - 08/12/17 09:14 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Tommar Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 07/29/12
Posts: 2051
Loc: Georgetown or Falcon Lake
Legal to take home as many as you want but I doubt the GW is gonna dig your garden up to see what kind of fertilizer you use.

SSS.
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#12384219 - 08/13/17 09:17 AM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: Tommar]
TCK73 Online   content
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 3284
Loc: Jack County
Originally Posted By: Tommar
Legal to take home as many as you want but I doubt the GW is gonna dig your garden up to see what kind of fertilizer you use.

SSS.


thumb

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#12409961 - 09/01/17 11:20 AM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
DCmac Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 2036
Loc: SW Okla
Ahhh nostalgia!
When I was a kid an older gentleman up the street had one hail of a garden every year. Every spring planting time he'd pay us kids for all the fish we could supply. Back in the early 50s it was a pretty good deal for an 8yo to get a quarter for a Radio Flyer full of suckers, shiners, minnows & kibbies.

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#12410947 - 09/01/17 11:47 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: DCmac]
Uncle Zeek Online   content
"Good News, Everyone!"

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 19828
Loc: Lewisville
Originally Posted By: DCmac
Ahhh nostalgia!
When I was a kid an older gentleman up the street had one hail of a garden every year. Every spring planting time he'd pay us kids for all the fish we could supply. Back in the early 50s it was a pretty good deal for an 8yo to get a quarter for a Radio Flyer full of suckers, shiners, minnows & kibbies.


What's a Radio Flyer?
_________________________
"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein, 1952

I can't give legal advice yet, but this site may have some of the answers you need: https://texaslawhelp.org/

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#12410952 - 09/02/17 12:32 AM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: Uncle Zeek]
Bruce's Guide Service Online   content
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 4104
Loc: southlake
Originally Posted By: Uncle Zeek
Originally Posted By: DCmac
Ahhh nostalgia!
When I was a kid an older gentleman up the street had one hail of a garden every year. Every spring planting time he'd pay us kids for all the fish we could supply. Back in the early 50s it was a pretty good deal for an 8yo to get a quarter for a Radio Flyer full of suckers, shiners, minnows & kibbies.


What's a Radio Flyer?

wagon
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#12414986 - 09/05/17 12:30 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: Uncle Zeek]
DCmac Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 2036
Loc: SW Okla

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#12415363 - 09/05/17 04:47 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
uncle_bagster Online   content
Extreme Angler

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 2716
I tried the carp/fertilize thing about 5 years ago, and the skunks kept digging them up. I laid down chicken wire, but that didn't stop them.

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#12425149 - 09/13/17 12:03 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
ZzzKing Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/03/15
Posts: 51
Loc: Dallas
If your goal is accurate historical gardening like the original natives did it, then carp should not be used as they weren't in Texas waters at the time. They were introduced from Asia by later settlers. If you are just interested in an organic approach, I think the suggestion to use fish emulsion is a good one and doesn't needlessly waste a resource.

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#12428356 - 09/15/17 10:49 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
duckkillah Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 46
Loc: east TX
Originally Posted By: dmunsie
When it comes to the law, SharkBaitTV is without a doubt 100% right.


Oh, I wouldn't quite go that far...


Originally Posted By: dmunsie
"Waste of fish - It is unlawful to leave edible fish or bait fish taken from the public waters of the state to die without the intent to retain the fish for consumption of bait."



Some of y'all probably ought to go look up the definition of "consumption" in the dictionary before explaining the law to everyone!


According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of consumption is:

1 a :a progressive wasting away of the body especially from pulmonary tuberculosis.

b :tuberculosis

2 a :the act or process of consuming
(e.g. consumption of food, consumption of resources)

b :use by or exposure to a particular group or audience
(e.g. the document was not intended for public consumption)

3 :use of something
(e.g. the jet's high consumption of fuel, the consumption of electricity)


There appears to be several meanings for "consumption", not just the one that y'all tend to use when getting up on your soapbox. The way I read it, I can use fish for whatever purpose I see fit. The key is that they be utilized and not just discarded.

Also, where do y'all think FISH emulsion comes from??

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#12430183 - 09/17/17 02:54 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: duckkillah]
Uncle Zeek Online   content
"Good News, Everyone!"

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 19828
Loc: Lewisville
Originally Posted By: duckkillah

Originally Posted By: dmunsie
"Waste of fish - It is unlawful to leave edible fish or bait fish taken from the public waters of the state to die without the intent to retain the fish for consumption of bait."


There appears to be several meanings for "consumption", not just the one that y'all tend to use when getting up on your soapbox.


I left out part of your post just to keep this post from being too big.

In the context of a law or regulation prohibiting the waste of 'edible' fish, which definition of 'consumption' is the one that TPWD and courts would use?
_________________________
"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein, 1952

I can't give legal advice yet, but this site may have some of the answers you need: https://texaslawhelp.org/

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#12430199 - 09/17/17 03:13 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: SharkBaitTV]
9094 Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 7192
Loc: Albany
Originally Posted By: SharkBaitTV
state the law that says that please.


Actually if you get a definition of consumption instead of riding your usual high horse about killing fish. You will find that using fish remains, which is any and all parts of a dead fish for fertilizer is legal consumption.
Nowhere does the law say human consumption only.
If what you claim was true no rough fish could be made into feralizer, dog food, emulsion or anything else.
Consumption does not exclusively mean being eaten. It means use of.
Call TPWD and ask them if it is ok to use rough fish as fertilizer. It is.
Throwing a truck load of arrived fish in a remote field is not consumption it is waste. Purposely burying or
grinding up and putting in soil for agriculture purposes is not waste.

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#12430202 - 09/17/17 03:17 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
9094 Offline
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Registered: 08/11/09
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Loc: Albany

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#12430690 - 09/17/17 08:10 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: 9094]
Uncle Zeek Online   content
"Good News, Everyone!"

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 19828
Loc: Lewisville
Originally Posted By: 9094
Originally Posted By: SharkBaitTV
state the law that says that please.


You will find that using fish remains, which is any and all parts of a dead fish for fertilizer is legal consumption.
Nowhere does the law say human consumption only.


First, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with using a few rough fish as fertilizer, pet food, etc.

Having said that, every use of "consumption" that I can find in fish & game law refers to "fit for human consumption". For example (note that the statute does not say 'game' fish. Just 'fish'):

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), it is an offense if a person intentionally takes or possesses a game bird, game animal, or fish and intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence fails to keep the edible portions of the bird, animal, or fish in an edible condition.
(c) It is an offense if a person while hunting kills or wounds a desert bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, mule deer, or white-tailed deer in violation of Section 61.022, 62.003, 62.0031, 62.004, or 62.005 and intentionally or knowingly fails to make a reasonable effort to retrieve the animal or intentionally, knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligence fails to keep the edible parts of the animal in an edible condition.
(d) In this section:
(1) “Edible condition” means fit for human consumption.


Tex. Parks & Wild. Code Ann. § 62.011 (Vernon)


For as much as I post about this subject, it's honestly no skin off my nose. I'm not the one risking the citation.
_________________________
"Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries --but it is a force stronger than crime" ~ Robert A. Heinlein, 1952

I can't give legal advice yet, but this site may have some of the answers you need: https://texaslawhelp.org/

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#12562581 - 01/03/18 10:29 AM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: ZzzKing]
rickt300 Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1273
Loc: Alvarado, Tx, Johnson
Keeping a few carp for any reason including eating them is not a waste of a resource and thinning the population of Carp would end up giving us fewer but larger carp. I personally feel that Carp under ten pounds should be treated like Tilapia. Why Carp fisherman are generally immune to the logic of managing a resource is beyond me.

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#12579934 - 01/15/18 03:37 PM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: FishGardener]
Smile-n-Nod Online   happy
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Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 5831
Loc: TX
When I was a kid, my grandparents lived on a river in Illinois that was full of 3-5 lb carp.

One summer, we kids decided to keep some of those carp and use them to fertilize my (ever-patient) grandmother's garden (you know, just the way that Squanto supposedly taught the Pilgrims to do).

A few days later, my grandmother's dachshund came into the house from the back yard, happy as a clam and stinking to high heaven. It had dug up and eaten some of those now-rotting fish. So the grown-ups quickly put and end to our experiment.
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#12584060 - Yesterday at 07:54 AM Re: Harvesting Carp for Historic/Organic Gardening [Re: 9094]
Dan90210 ☮ Online   content
Nonbinary Gender of the Year 2017

Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 26629
Loc: Denton County
Originally Posted By: 9094
Originally Posted By: SharkBaitTV
state the law that says that please.


Actually if you get a definition of consumption instead of riding your usual high horse about killing fish. You will find that using fish remains, which is any and all parts of a dead fish for fertilizer is legal consumption.
Nowhere does the law say human consumption only.
If what you claim was true no rough fish could be made into feralizer, dog food, emulsion or anything else.
Consumption does not exclusively mean being eaten. It means use of.
Call TPWD and ask them if it is ok to use rough fish as fertilizer. It is.
Throwing a truck load of arrived fish in a remote field is not consumption it is waste. Purposely burying or
grinding up and putting in soil for agriculture purposes is not waste.


He is right.

I mean its common sense guys. And there are WAY too many carp in this country... using them for fertilizer sounds like a good idea to me.

Carp guys with little hammocks and soft nets as to not hurt the carp crack me up. The things are almost indestructible. I have seen several nearly cut in half with props, the wounds healed and the fish lived on well past the time of the injury, years even. One time I threw one up on the bank at Lake Mead in Arizona (it was ILLEGAL to release them alive at the time in Arizona, that's since changed). The thing sat on the bank in 110 degree heat for an hour. Then out of nowhere gave a few flops, got back in the water and swam off like nothing had happened.

I dont know that these fish would be too hurt by not being handled with TLC and in a rubber, soft net. And I am sure would make great fertilizer if you can keep the pests away.
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