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#12198729 - 04/13/17 09:54 PM rod action discussion
TioPick Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Paradise on the Rio
I can't hide my own Easter eggs yet, but there are lots of stuff I seem to relearn... But that also teaches me stuff. As we (Y'all) welcome newbie's here and try to help, maybe discussing this will help me as well.

For years I have seen rod action listed as fast or moderate or moderate fast etc. Good luck comparing one to another though I understand that Orvis has started assigning numbers to theirs.

I guess it is pretty well a given that you select a line size based on the size of the fly you are trying to throw. Of course you can throw a small fly with a 6 but if you whip the water with it, you will spook the fish. (Don't ask me how I know that) Well on my recent return to fly fishing trip I had a EUREKA moment. It is the simplest, most basic things that escape me.

I present Choosing a rod action based on how far you are trying to cast. Allowing a little Poetic License (aka Fisherman's exaggeration) there I was standing there with line hanging limply (no jokes please)and me with a typical dumb look on face. I have cast practice yarn farther. Duh, not enough line out to be able to even attempt to make a cast (load the rod I was using, a 10).

I only have second hand knowledge about various rods but like I was talking about with the Mangrove rod before.. Report was that it would pick up a LOT of line (ie, it is stiff). If you will consider that Lefty does not even consider it a cast unless it is 90' or more. I am sure there are many of us with normal casts of 30' and when we try, probably 50' (one of these days after I get my stroke back, I will measure). Bearing this in mind I suspect that Lefty's rod choice is only a little more flexible than a pool cue. A faster action would seem to help people that are not as concerned about distance as they are with accuracy and trick stuff like casting around corners.

The question here is how in the world does one decide which rod to chose? especially if you are learning to cast... In my case I may not be doing it right in the first place (besides not understanding Lefty's method). I used to be rather strong and when I feel the rod load behind me I could make a sharp punch forward, wrist locked (until dropping the line on the water) and forearm level and upper arm making the punch. Whatever works for you I guess or as they used to say, different strokes for different folks (funky)

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#12199164 - 04/14/17 08:44 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
karstopo Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 05/22/16
Posts: 200
Loc: Brazoria County
Fast, tip flex rods probably aren't the best for the newbie. A medium fast rod that bends into the mid section gives the cast more feel feedback, one can feel the rod load. A medium action bends even more. I guess a slow action would be a wet noodle.

It's interesting to see videos where people like Tim Rajeff states he fishes fiberglass rods most of the time. Not a material known for being used in fast rods. Or how about accuracy casting champion Chris Korich preference for older med. fast graphite rods in competition.

I carry 3 rods with me on my Commander kayak. The 3 rods I carry changes with what I'm expecting wind, fly, and fish for the day. I always have a fast action wind tamer rod to throw tight loops into the wind. I always have a medium action fiberglass rod for creative and accurate casting at targets like fish and structure. The 3rd rod is a it depends rod.

What good is an $800 ultra fast stick if you can't cast it? What good is it if it can launch 100 feet of line but there's no feel or touch at 40 feet where all the fish are?

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#12199307 - 04/14/17 09:53 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
Meadowlark Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 2954
Loc: East Texas
Originally Posted By: TioPick
...

The question here is how in the world does one decide which rod to chose? especially if you are learning to cast...
'

First and foremost, by trying out the rod BEFORE purchasing.

Second and almost as important, by the primary intended usage of the rod in question.

There are lots of other reasons, but none nearly as important as these two.

Lefty is the real deal. I watched him throw the entire fly line on the end of a short stick one time while explaining to me the intricacies of casting, LOL. It was a shocking demo.

Then I learned that for 99% of the fly fishing I do, distance is probably the least important item( and most over rated) whereas accuracy and minimum false casting are paramount.

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#12199362 - 04/14/17 10:35 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
TioPick Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Paradise on the Rio
Since I talk too much / am too wordy. To summarize my point is that it seems to me that a "stiffer" rod would require more line out in order to load the rod. So, the heart of the matter is trying to make sense of all the terms and comparing one manufacturer's rods and labeling to others. I do not doubt Lefty in the least and also see the need for his distance at times but I do have trouble getting my mind around his method and wonder what he does in creeks and ponds.

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#12199658 - 04/14/17 02:41 PM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
karstopo Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 05/22/16
Posts: 200
Loc: Brazoria County
The little warm water creek and pond fishing I've done hasn't at all been about long casts. I think creeks and ponds are where relatively slower action glass rods are about ideal. One could pick up a CGR for 50-70$ on sale at Cabelas a while back and I think the Eagle Claws are even less than that. No need to drop a lot of coin on a set up for your local bass and bluegill water unless you just want to. Amazon has those wild water graphite set ups rod, reel, line, leader plus some flies for under $100. I've cast one, a 5/6 weight, and it was fun to cast and easy to feel the rod load. I almost bought one myself.

Lefty is a fly fishing rock star. But you don't have to copy him or his methods to cast a fly rod well enough for pond and creek fishing.

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#12199921 - 04/14/17 07:09 PM Re: rod action discussion [Re: karstopo]
TioPick Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Paradise on the Rio
Actually I hold Lefty way above a rock star, more like an Artisan. From everything I have read by him or about him, I do not think he would be offended by my little feeble attempts at humor through Poetic License. I have the following books by Lefty:
Fly Fishing in Salt Water
Saltwater Fly Patterns
Longer Fly casting
The complete set of Lefty Kreh's Little Library of Fly Fishing
as well as the DVD of Bob Clouser and Lefty Kreh tying flies.
If it were not for the Little Library, I would have more books by John Gierach. Also books by Joan Wulff (perhaps the best book on getting started and casting), Lee Wullf, and AK Best (on dying and tying) I should also mention the Curtis Creek Manifesto (Sheridan Anderson) that tells you everything you need to know. I have given away several of them.

Still, while I can not fully get my mind around Lefty's method, I also long ago realized that if you do not properly do single / double hauls, you can wind up spoiling an otherwise perfect cast. To compensate I had a rather strong punch for loading and could work more line out until I could shoot the spot I wanted. Those of us without much talent find work arounds.

But I am still ignorant on deciding what action for when... Other than my recent Eureka moment realizing that I needed more line out with a stiffer rod. I have not begone to analyze how this will affect Roll Casts. I ma putting the 10wt up and sticking with the Orvis Bamboo for flounder and the Sage 8wt (I used for steelhead) for dredging Specs and Reds..


Edited by TioPick (04/14/17 07:11 PM)

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#12200097 - 04/14/17 09:22 PM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
Txmedic033 Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 08/13/13
Posts: 3986
Loc: Longview, Tx
I've watched a few YouTube videos of Peter Hayes that I've found helpful. Especially his video explaining roll casts.

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#12200203 - 04/14/17 10:33 PM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
TioPick Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Paradise on the Rio
Txmedic033, I am going to have to get out and work on that. I had never seen laying the line a rods length behind you and then rolling. Always before with rod tip up and no more than inches (a foot or two?) behind you and flipping a nice roll forward. Peter's way will let me get a lot more distance. Will work much better for flounder. Thanks

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#12200379 - 04/15/17 06:14 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
txbassnewbie Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Flower Mound
Having started on fast action then going to a slow action fiberglass. Personally I would reccommend a slow action first to a beginner as you can feel the rod load and since it is so slow you can actually look back and see the back cast form. That is what I am going to use when they are ready to start fly fishing


Having use fast tip for almost three years I found fiber glass to be really enjoyable

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#12206824 - 04/19/17 10:45 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
COFF Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 10992
Loc: Carrollton
For most of my small water casts, I can't afford more than 10 or 12 feet of fly line to load the rod behind me. Otherwise I'm tangled up in the brush or trees. It's more about the roll cast.
_________________________
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

-Marcus Tullius Cicero, 63 BC

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#12206913 - 04/19/17 11:33 AM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
labman2 Offline
Green Horn

Registered: 01/03/16
Posts: 1
Tio, buy Lefty and Ed Jawaworski's new DVD "The Complete Cast" sponsored by TFO. It's 3 hours long and an incredible production. It will answer any question you have about load, length of cast stroke relative to length of cast, different casts for all situations, hauling, tailing loops etc.

Most all rods need a minimum amount of line out to fully load the rod. Hauling is nothing more than generating more line speed, which generally makes for a more efficient loop and better, more effective cast. I haul whether I'm casting 15' with a 3wt on a trout stream or casting 70' with a 10wt in salt water (trying) to catch permit. More line speed enables the caster to present a fly in all conditions.

For me, casting and rod preferences change according to situation. A rod I enjoy casting in 3-5 wt is much different than the rod I like in 7-9wt, same for 11-12 wt. It all depends on the application and condition.

I had fairly major shoulder surgery last fall. My 8wt rod of choice was a TFO BVK, loved it. I found that post surgery, my cast has slowed down (for the better) and now casting a slower rod like the Scott Meridian is much more enjoyable and more efficient. I feel the load of the rod much better now since I changed my casting mechanics. Now, my shoulder strength is back to 100%, but I have worked on keeping the cast the same when I was not at full strength as it is more effective and efficient way to cast.

I had the privilege many years ago to fish with Chico Fernandez in the Keys. He would make a 70-80 ft cast to a bonefish effortlessly. I would make the same cast, but would would fight it and over power it. He said you can be an engineer or a poet with a fly line. It's taken a long time, but I'm finally starting to cast more like a poet.


Edited by labman2 (04/19/17 11:40 AM)

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#12209168 - 04/20/17 06:10 PM Re: rod action discussion [Re: TioPick]
TioPick Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 69
Loc: Paradise on the Rio
Meadowlark, while I was trying to be humorous and using a pool cue, if Lefty was throwing using a short stick, he could certainly use a pool cue. I hope I am not beating a dead horse but recently I thumbing a catalog which listed fly rods with Lefty's name on them... They were all listed as Fast. I will search for and buy the suggested DVD and learn more. I issue is rather moot at the moment as my CFO has informed me of certain budget freezes so I will be using what I have for the foreseeable future. (I believe Mr Zern addressed this matter a few times himself).

My 6wt is a 1959 model Orvis impregnated bamboo and it flexes all the way down. I can cast short or on out to typical distances. I have used my 8wt Sage DS-II on the steelhead river and could easily feel when it loaded behind me. I am not sure I really need the 10wt but you know the wind is always blowing down here on the coast but I am planning on going out again late next week, fishing and camping with much of that in the dark. I may have a Coleman lantern close enough by to see what I am doing (wrong). Thanks for all the replies and advice. I will report back.


Edited by TioPick (04/20/17 10:33 PM)

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