Last time i shared my thoughts on this matter i had several dozen people threaten to kill me, hopefully this go around people are more civil.
Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are a total idiot or they are a vegan transgender atheist apache dog who voted for Hillary.
I wanted to share my strong opinions with the world and make it known where is stand exactly on the matter of bow fishing and on the conservation of alligator gar.
You can take my opinions or leave them one thing i can say is alligator gar..the big ones, the ones over 7 foot are going to become increasingly more rare over the next 10 years until they can barely be found at all as the internet gathers more and more information on how and where to target these fish making them easier for people to target and find in their remote waters they call home.

> ... vegan transgender atheist apache dog who voted for Hillary ...

LOL. So, who did you vote for?

I am not a bowfisherman but it dosnt look like there is any shortage of them.

Right now the regulations are 1 per day, are you saying that's not working? I like the idea of over a certain length it's cpr only, but you can't cpr with a bow.

no the 1 per day regulation per angler is broken and does not protect these fish at all. can copy paste from another forum where people are arguing for their right to release 7 foot gar with arrow holes in them. people just fish over the limit or put 6 people in the boat or just release gar with arrow holes in them. i have talked to several game wardens around the trinity river who have told me they are afraid for their safely to get on the river and check peoples boats(mainly bowfishermans), instead they do it at the ramps and people have time to discard illegal harvested fish by then.
when you kill one of these 7 foot fish that fish will never be replaced in your lifetime. i can guarantee that the 7 foot gar are getting more rare, even the guides who know what they are doing were fishing on top of each other this year when one of them found large gar.

[img]https://scontent-mia1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=58B79AB3[/img]
as long as people are doing this^^^^ I'm going to fight for the protection of alligator gar in the state of Texas. that is 200 years of alligator gar growth killed for pics and bragging rights and was thrown in a field to rot after the pics.

I agree that the limit does no good if people high grade i.e. toss the smaller dead fish back in the water because they shot a bigger one.

Yeah, that photo is probably excessive take.

I do not loose sleep about dead gar...but I was taught growing up that God gave man dominion over all the fish and animals. But I was also taught at an early age that I would only kill(purposely) what I was going to eat. Just my beliefs and I live in the USA where each can have their own beliefs. If you thought the Alligator Gar was becoming rare you should have been on Falcon the last few years. :-)

Good thread.

Gar hold a special place in my heart because of the many nights I set on the banks of the Trinity with my dad fishing for gar. This was back in the early 70's and I thought they were cool fish even way back then. Killing one just for sport makes zero sense to me.

We need someone to go down to Choke Canyon and shoot several thousand needlenose gar. I won't lose any sleep over a dead alligator gar either though.

killing an animal that is NOT an invasive species just for fun, compensating for a small ....

I have no prob shooting carp. Exterminate wild pigs all you want. But killing animals purely for sport........... is a douchebag pursuit IMO

feel free to eat it and I am fine with it.

If you kill it on purpose you oughta eat it. Otherwise, why did you kill it? You may exclude the obvious.

The irony in your post is strong. "You can kill things if I don't like them, but if I like them, then don't kill them".

Jest thinking out loud...but I believe the point here is not kill or not kill, it is kill for management not for sport alone.

Killing pests because they are pests, damaging the environment, spreading disease, destroying crops or property, is not the same thing as killing a non-pest species strictly for the thrill of the kill.

Bass fishermen and others need to understand that keystone predators like alligator gar are a necessary and contributory species. Especially the larger ones that utilize carp, large gizzard shad, large tilapia, large sunfish, etc. for prey provide the service of stimulating the production of smaller prey for the bass and other smaller predators by removing some of the overabundance of large (unavailable to the bass due to size) prey animals.

Fisheries lacking such keystone predators tend to become unbalanced with large prey and small predators (like a pond with big bluegills and small bass).

As the fishery for large gar specimens grows and becomes more popular, more cash generating for the economy and a more important aspect of the overall fishery in many places, the larger individuals should come under extreme protection and not be rapidly killed off, being slow to replace.

This also applies to fisheries like the one for large common carp in Austin. Protect the fishery that stimulates the economy.

Believe it or not, there is more than largemouth bass to fish for and some folks see the largemouth bass as a stupid brute easily fooled onto a hook by the rankest of amateurs. Wherein it takes true finesse and skill to entice and land an animal like a carp or a gar.

So I s'pose, in the end, irony does indeed rule the day.

How many more laws do you want for gar, they already have a special season and 1 per day limit on most lakes. Maybe you can get them on the endangered species list? If you want them conserved then you need to talk to your gamewarden.

I don't think you're going to change any of the poachers ways, unless you turn them in for law breaking.

"I have talked to several game wardens around the trinity river who have told me they are afraid for their safely to get on the river and check peoples boats"? ....This is ridiculous...that would be like a state trooper saying he is afraid to patrol the hwy, alone, at night.....doesn't make sense to me.

They already have regulated the harvesting of this fish. Its the GWs job to protect the fish and enforce the regulations. Why even bother with regulating it if the Gws are not going to go board boats and watch bow fisherman? All they have to do is post up in the dark and watch the boats with 10000W candle power shooting and throwing fish back. Whats so dangerous about that?

Killing big gar is probably growing in popularity since it costs so much to hunt anything else now a days. They will be raised in high fenced ponds soon....

Wrong, check studies.

So, wardens are afraid of bow fishermen... really?

Wrong, it will be replaced relatively soon (in gar years) by a fish that is 6.5 feet now.

This I could get behind -- big fish are getting rare.

Have you ever considered that your recent activity might be contributing to demise of big gars? You post those videos that show how awesome it is to fight biggest fish out there. It also shows how simple your gear needs to be and how easy it is to catch them. People pay attention and take notice. They meay not have all know-how but there is strength in numbers. You may think adding "save the gar" message to those videos somehow offsets negative effect, but I doubt it. Same people sooner or later figure out that gar is quite edible if you know what you are doing.

Also, I am pretty sure not every fish that your clients hook survives the release (some probably die few days later).

These people used their right to harvest fish from public water. As long as they stay within their limit -- there is no problem here. You might argue that limits are hurting gar population, but you need better arguments than that picture.

If you really want to change something -- lookup redfish wars. Government can change limits, but you'll have to do proper studies, a lot of paper- and legwork. I suggest giving TPWD a call and ask them what is required to introduce slot limit on gars...

To fight is to take arms and put your life on the line. So far you've been only posting in various forums, likely hurting gars even more.

No, it is about 50 years of 4 fish lives. If I follow your logic -- I'll claim that yesterday in just one day we lost millions of years of "shrimp growth" just in Galveston bay.

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FIRST off shooting fish is what it is, its NOT fishing, even if you include a reel as a line retrieval device. TPWD sets conservation limits on species of fish, as long as the law is enforced, we should be good with harvest. Personally I would be fine with excluding gar from bow shooting, a magnificent fish, and its almost criminal(to me) to harvest 150-200# fish that have been around far longer than I have - if you don't want increased pressure on this fish and places you fish, don't post on open forum fishing sites - lesson I learned long ago.

negative ghost rider. note the first sentence........key word INVASIVE. not one bit of irony there good sir. Protect native species, kill invasive detrimental species. I will not shoot a coyote either unless it gets into the chicken coop. I have never had a gar attack any of our domesticated animals

And the 5 8 lb bass it ate last week will never be replaced either.

i am not a gar lover but I am sure they cannot eat an 8 pound bass, maybe a few dink bass now and again but I looked it up in TPW and found that bass make up a very small % of their diet. in my quick google of the subject they seem to consume carp as their fav food source which is fine with me. anyway..........

Oh my, TRIGGERED!

I never claimed to be an authority I just posted my opinion and what I found. You say I am like a "self important twit" while you act like the spoiled rotten millennial getting upset of a post in a discussion forum that you disagreed with..........a discussion forum my friend. This is exactly the place for discourse on this subject as that is what this thread is for. This is a place for people to share opinions............please by the love of God tell me you are simply trolling and I will feel better.

Ok you get a trophy for best post in this thread.

so you believe in not killing a native animal and wont shoot a coyote? you must not deer hunt whatsoever then, or have had any experience with it in your life.

Gar taste good. Louisiana folks been eating them much longer than any of us been alive.

would like to see some pics of gar over 7 foot from another state than Tx if they are so common..

would like to see pics of the cooler with ice the people killing 7 foot gar are putting them in during hot summer days so they can keep them viable as a food fish

going to say this again, when you kill a gar over 7 foot that fish will never be replaced in your lifetime, not only are you killing that fish you are killing the millions of gar it could make if it continues its bloodline.


"Have you ever considered that your recent activity might be contributing to demise of big gars? You post those videos that show how awesome it is to fight biggest fish out there. It also shows how simple your gear needs to be and how easy it is to catch them. People pay attention and take notice. They meay not have all know-how but there is strength in numbers. You may think adding "save the gar" message to those videos somehow offsets negative effect, but I doubt it. Same people sooner or later figure out that gar is quite edible if you know what you are doing.

Also, I am pretty sure not every fish that your clients hook survives the release (some probably die few days later)."


i am using the exact same hooks and methods used by TPWD to tag and release these fish, as well as making changes like leaving them in the water that goes even further to make catch and release possible 100% of the time.
TPWD and kirk have tagged and release 6000 of these fish on non stainless 3/0 treble hooks and thousands of those have been recaught. i have placed a fair amount of tags my self and re caught tagged fish including 7 foot fish caught months apart. i know i have never killed an alligator gar and will continue to bring to light the way these fish are being hunted into extinction, my goal is the protection of alligator gar, the big gar is thats all i can save. if that means i can no longer go catch these fish legally, because no one can my work is done. and that work involves TPWD as you can see
[img]https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t...amp;oe=58FB6BA9[/img]

"I'm going to fight for the protection of alligator gar in the state of Texas.
To fight is to take arms and put your life on the line."

yah yah i hear it plenty big bow fisherman gonna kill me blah blah,
men dont talk bud.

" never claimed to be an authority I just posted my opinion and what I found. You say I am like a "self important twit" while you act like the spoiled rotten millennial getting upset of a post in a discussion forum that you disagreed with..........a discussion forum my friend. This is exactly the place for discourse on this subject as that is what this thread is for. This is a place for people to share opinions............please by the love of God tell me you are simply trolling and I will feel better."

where did i ever say you couldn't have your say or where did i get upset by anything anyone has say for that matter?
its legal for you to kill 7 foot gar currently its legal for me to say i think thats wrong and i think it should be changed?
so whats the problem? is it that you dont like what I'm saying? so you seek to censor it?

i think what upsets you is you know no sporting person would agree to purposely elongating a harvested animals suffering for personal satisfaction like bow fishing big gar does.
i think you know what you are doing is wrong and you dont want anyone to bring light to just how bad it really is.
thats why you fear what I'm saying its because you know I'm right, they are getting more rare and they do need protection, and you know others will will hear what I'm saying as the truth as well.

you know changes are coming when it comes to bow fishing and they will come regardless of anything i do.

context my friend. I said "I would not shoot a coyote UNLESS IT GETS INTO THE CHICKEN COOP" My statement is simple, I will kill an animal to protect my chickens (or a person, my dog, a neighbors livestock ect) but will not just shoot a coyote just because I see one. I admit I do not deer hunt and certainly have no problem with it. It is hunting for meat and I like venison. My problem is going out, killing an animal purely for a sport, a picture and bragging rights.

Perhaps if gar were overpopulated in our lakes I might feel differently.

If anyone is interested in a similar subject and has some time, reading through this thread on Alligator Gar on this forum, that I created 12+ years ago is a good read.

http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/26203/1

thank you for sharing, very interesting opinions.

I have fished below the dam at Lake Livingston since I was a child. I have camped there many many times.

When they have the water flowing, there can be tones of carp, buffalo, and all species of gar stacked up in this small area. There are some very large fish there.

When it is like that it is almost a nightly thing to see several bow fishing rigs launch just before dark. They will fish for white bass etc.... until it gets dark then the lights come on and the bows come out.

The next morning the banks will be lined up with dead carp, buffalo and every species of gar there is. They will have a single hole in their side.

These are fish that are shot then released. It is illegal to shoot them and discard TPWD calls that wanton waste.

Some people will get around the by taking them when they leave and discarding them later. This is still Wanton Waste as you have no intention of doing anything other than tossing them away to rot. Some claim they bury them in the garden for fertilizer........umm Ok sure.

Bow fishing is killing for sport plain and simple. You can try and justify it with myths about how many game fish the gar eat or what ever else a person tells themselves. You may not do it for the thrill of the kill, you may do it for the challenge of the shot. The fact remains that the result is a dead fish that is not consumed, it is tossed out as trash or left where it was shot. That is killing for sport.

The vast majority of the people that bow fish do not consume the fish they kill, or give them to some one who will. We all know this is true.

Let's all be honest about it.

If you have no problem with killing and not utilizing what you kill in a legitimate manner fine say so. Do not try to sugar coat, justify, make up stuff.

Simply admit that you like to shoot animals with your bow and you have no issue with wasting the animal.

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what you have seen is the exact reason i am as adamant about this issue as i am, the way our native species are treated on out public waterways is horrible and illegal and people need to be aware of the issues that are going on, if people were killing deer and letting them rot in a field everyone of you would be up in arms, why are our native fish species any different what so ever?

the conservation of americas largest freshwater predatory fish is in my opinion a very important issue, an issue i think needs to be looked at and readdressed.
if you thought everything was perfectly okay with the way this species is targeted and treated after harvest you wouldn't have a problem with me bringing any of it to light and there being a conversation about it..

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Well I guess using a couple of sticks of dynamite is just plumb out of the question huh?

if i have lost control of my emotions i missed it, all i have done is stated facts and my opinions and you dont like them so you try to discredit me its pretty simple and easy to see to anyone who is not here to specifically fight against me.

Any one been fishing lately?

Come on guys. Enough of the personal attacks. Anti's love threads like this.

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so when faced with facts and logic you stoop to making up stories about me.

i have never had a single problem with anyone on the trinity river, if it makes you feel better to pretend something happened so be it.

you can make up whatever you want about me, you can slander me as a guide, you can say every gar i have ever caught died right after i released it.

you are not going to upset me over social media

your efforts to slander me will put the right people into my boat as a guide, the people that i want to fish with, the poeple who care about conservation who will go out of their way to make sure the guide they use practices catch and release 100% of the time and is conservation based.

no sportsman would ever agree to elongate a harvested animals suffering needlessly
no sportsman would harvest an animal and not harvest every usable portion of the animal
no sportsman would leave an animal they harvested to rot in a field
no sportsman would release an animal with an arrow hole in it
no sportsman would harvest a target species to the point of non sustainability and watch it go extinct without saying something

there is a reason i have put hundreds of hours of alligator gar videos on YouTube for the 11 million people who have watched my videos to see, i am no scared to show the world every second of how i interact with this fish species, my head is held high and i know i am walking the path i am supposed to be walking.

you know why people listened to Steve Irwin? its because he had a gift, a gift that he wasn't afraid to use or share with the world. he had a love and passion for the planet and living creatures so strong people could see it and connect with it.
i have the same gift and passion and I'm going to share it with the world, thank you for providing me more motivation to work even harder to protect this species.

as i stated in that video i am playing a role that seeks to balance the role you and others like you are playing, i respect that you are motivated enough to fight for what you believe in and I'm going to leave it at that.

Henry Martin
Owner of Catching Dinosaurs Guide Service.

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saying your not slandering someone, and then proceeding to do so doesn't make it legal.

anyone can make up anything, and anyone who has been on the river would know that people go way out of their way to not have conflicts with people out there.

are gar extinct yet? Almost as worthless as turtles.

in what way would an apex predator, a keystone species to this region for the last 100 million years be worthless?

everything native plays its part.

thats just funny.
i haven't edited a thing.
i meant everything i said, and stand behind it.

All I can say is I am not a fishing or bow hunting guide, I am not a bow "fisher", I am just a simple fisherman that has been fishing the Trinity River all of my 47 years. I have lived within 50 miles of the river all of my life and currently live about 3 mile from the river.

I do not know if there are to many or not enough gar of whatever size. I rely on TPWD to tell me that.

I do know that it is wrong to kill native animals and fish with absolutely no intention of utilizing the animal/fish.

What I wrote about previously is not made up by some one with a monetary interest in the issue It is what I have witnessed with my own eyes many many times over the years.

When the water flow is right below the Lake Livingston dam it is quite common to see three or four tricked out bow fishing boats each night.

Each morning the banks will be lined with dead fish that each have a single hole in them. That is fact, I have witnessed this many times over the years.

Some say that bringing this up will deprive "men of their rights". I disagree, what will deprive men of their rights is not this type of conversation.

What will deprive men of their rights is those that abuse those rights, disregard the laws regarding those rights and those that refuse to admit there is a problem.

If you have no problem with shooting native fish species and not utilizing them then say so. We all now that next to no one is using these native buffalo and gar for a legitimate purpose.

^respect everything you said

EXCERPT FROM TEXAS PARKS AND WILDLIFE'S WEBSITE ON TPW CLOSING FISHING DURING SPAWNING CONDITIONS:

Alligator gar populations are believed to be declining throughout much of their historical range in North America, which includes the Mississippi River system as well as the coastal rivers of the Gulf of Mexico from Florida to northern Mexico. Although the specific severity of these declines is unknown, habitat alteration and over-exploitation are thought to be partially responsible. Alligator gar have been extirpated in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio and designated as a �Species of Concern� in Oklahoma and Kentucky. In addition, the Endangered Fishes Committee of the American Fisheries Society has listed the alligator gar as �Vulnerable.� Observed declines in other states, vulnerability to overfishing, and increased interest in the harvest of trophy gar indicate that a conservative management approach is warranted. Since 2009, the department has conducted (and is continuing to conduct) research to determine the estimated harvest of alligator gar, quantify reproduction, understand habitat usage, and determine geographic differences in populations. Initial analysis of the research data indicate that alligator gar in Texas have the greatest chance of spawning success if the creation of preferred spawning habitat (the seasonal inundation of low-lying areas of vegetation) occurs in late spring through early summer. Since each year does not necessarily bring seasonal inundation at the optimum time, spawning success varies greatly. For example, department data for the middle Trinity River indicate that between 1980 and 2010, strong reproductive success occurred in only five years (1980, 1989, 1990, 1991, and 2007). Furthermore, in 21 of the years between 1980 and 2010, reproductive success was nonexistent or weak, and in many of these years, rainfall was low or drought conditions occurred. Because the conditions for spawning do not exist on a regular or cyclical basis, and because spawning occurs in shallow waters where numerous gar can be concentrated in one area, alligator gar are extremely vulnerable to harvest during spawning. To protect alligator gar from excessive harvest during spawning, the proposed new rule would allow the executive director of the department to prohibit the take of alligator in an affected area. The proposed new rule would require the executive director to provide appropriate public notice when an affected area is declared and when lawful fishing for alligator may resume, and would limit the duration of a prohibition to no more than 30 days. The proposed new rule is necessary to manage alligator gar populations and ensure their ability to perpetuate themselves successfully.

This is ridiculous! You're talking about one small fishery! Go to Amistad or Falcon and see hundred pounders exploding all over the lake!! I would like to see a 5 fish bag limit everywhere but your precious Trinity. catch and release only for the Trinity. Would that satisfy you!!

Where fish of 200+lbs live. Maybe even 250-300lbs. That's why that area of the Trinity is worth better management of truly epic fish.


Next time you're there please shoot some video of all these 100lb fish. Not saying it's not true, would just love to see a video of that. I wonder how many fish over 100-150lbs there is in those lakes?

Merry Christmas everyone!

Shoot video...really? I'm gonna guess you've never fished either lake. GIANT fish are exploding on the surface in 100 ft of water in the middle of the lakes....bass,crappie,catfish,carp??? I guess it could be Moby Dick! BTW: After a couple of years of research and study PAWS has increased the bag limit to 5 on Falcon. Big props to James at Falcon Lake Tackle for his efforts.

What is PAWS?

Parks and Wildlife Services.

It is Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Not Parks and Wildlife Services.

So that makes it OK to kill them and leave them to rot?

I have no problem with harvest of these animals by bow, my issue is the fact that most people are killing these fish taking a picture and then leaving them to rot. I don't care what native species it is that is wrong in my opinion and the law of the State of Texas says the same they call it "Wanton Waste".

And yes taking it off some where away from the Lake/River then dumping so no one can see is the same Wanton Waste as shooting it and dumping it in the water. The very fact that often the person does dump them out of site out of mind says right there that they know it is not right otherwise why hide it.


Again if you have no problem with killing a native animal and tossing it aside like so much trash then by all means say so. Be honest about it and admit what we all know, and that is the fact that the majority of these native Gar and Buffalo are being shot and tossed away as trash. Present your logical thought out reasons for believing that it is OK.

When fishing is bad, scapegoats abound. At Falcon, first it was the alligator gar supposedly causing the problem, then it was supposedly cormorants. TPWD studies didn't show any impact of alligator gar on bass. A tiny percentage were found in stomach contents. Not satisfied with that, a certain person said it was because the gar had eaten most of the bass already. With most of the bass supposedly eaten the fishery has been doing strangely well in a short period of time, even with nothing being done about the cormorants and no scientific evidence to show what positive impact the 5-fish bag is having on alligator gar or bass.

Falcon does have a 10 fish possession limit for alligator gar. The rest of the state is 1 alligator gar. Personally, I'd like to see the limits be based on the observations of the state biologists.

FROM THE US FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE:


The alligator gar is the largest of seven species of gar found in North America, Central America, and Cuba. The largest one on record came from the Rio Grande River in Texas and is an IGFA All-tackle World Record weighing 279 lb 0 oz. However, historic observations and photographs suggest they can attain weights and lengths of up to 350 lbs. and 10 feet in length. This species, the largest in the Mississippi River Valley, once had a range that spread across most large river systems and tributaries from the Gulf of Mexico states of the U.S. and Mexico upstream into the Ohio River Valley.....Recent surveys suggest populations are far below historic levels and could be declining further. In some northern states, they are believed to have been extirpated or reduced in number to non-viable populations requiring reintroductions through stockings in some locations. For these reasons they have been identified as an imperiled species by the American Fisheries Society and a focal species of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. Numerous states have already or are in the process of increasing conservation and management through regulations, habitat restoration, and stocking.....They are one of the largest freshwater fishes in North America, are the largest in the Lepisosteid family, and are the largest freshwater fish in the Mississippi River Valley and the apex predator in the system. Alligator gar historically inhabited waters and tributaries throughout the Mississippi River Valley from Ohio to Illinois and downstream into the estuary waters of the Gulf of Mexico. They may have even existed as far north as Iowa and as far west as Kansas and Nebraska. Currently known populations exist only in the lower Mississippi River Valley from Oklahoma to the west, Arkansas to the north, Texas and portions of Mexico to the south, and east to Florida. In addition to a diminished range, their numbers have also substantially decreased over the past 50 years. Alligator gar were once abundant in many watersheds but are now difficult to find. There are many reasons being considered for their decline including habitat loss resulting from navigation and flood control alteration of streams and flood plains to over-harvesting. They were considered in some places a highly sought after sportfish, but mostly they were considered a "trash fish" and were targeted for eradication or control. Historical pictures, accounts, and fishermen all support the substantial decline of the species. Studies in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana have shown that the alligator gar is very susceptible to overfishing. It has been classified as rare in Missouri, threatened in Illinois, and endangered in Arkansas, Kentucky, and is soon to be in Tennessee. The alligator gars, along with other gar, are important to their ecosystem in order to maintain the ecological balance.

There is no "special season" statewide

-There is no fishing in May in the National Wildlife Refuge on Texoma to protect spawning fish
-TPW has the power to close certain fisheries during spawning conditions (flooding) In the last 3 years, this has happened once on one section of the Trinity for 30 days.

It's wide open 365 days a year everywhere else. One fish per day, except falcon where you can possess 10.

Here is the phone number to report poaching: 800 792-GAME (4263) They will pay cash rewards up to $1,000 to report poaching.

In most of the their historic range the answer would be yes, they are gone forever, never to be seen in their natural habitat by future generations.

This is so sad... :-( What to do? I am almost shaking inside.

There is no way we could reintroduce them back to save future generations from not being able to see them.

If a 250# alligator gar can catch and eat a cormorant I'm all for the gar!

I think this is already being done. But the goal is to save the large 200+ lb fish so they can spawn other large fish. If you remove the genetics of the larger fish that will stun the potential for future generations.

This is a ear otoliths survey from a couple years ago by a "guide" and tpwd. Tpwd agreed that they believe ear otoliths are still not accurate at aging gar. They believe the fish ARE younger than the amount of growth rings in the otoliths.

The gar in the survey came solely from the trinity FROM a guide and bowfishing tournaments. They tests were done by a tpwd biologist. I am a bowfisherman, but with that said...I eat gar, not everyone but some. I eat buffalo also. Carp get tossed. I wish we still had catfish to shoot, that was nice.

I see... And small fish (quite obviously) spawns only small fish

They are quite similar to the Paddlefish and the Sturgeon. While growing extremely large, they are long-lived and take a long time to reach sexual maturity. The largest fish are the females which are the most productive spawners. The combination of the slow growth, targeting of the most productive spawners and the infrequency of spawning (requires flooding conditions) makes the populations quite susceptible to over-harvest. There are a range of scientific opinions out there and a relative lack of research, but I think 15% annual harvest is the highest sustainable percentage I've seen.

It's easy to speculate about re-introduction programs if we get it wrong and their range continues to shrink. However, I think most would agree that it would be significantly cheaper to manage the current situation through regulation than the millions in public funds a hatchery program would require. Additionally, once the unique genetic strains that have adapted to thrive in a particular body of water over millennia are gone, they are gone for good.

According to some online sources maturity: 11 years for females and 6 for males. I saw them spawning in 2015 on Trinity in flooded grass -- spawners were about 3' long. Yes, they are quite vulnerable due to their spawning requirements. No, killing big fish is not the end of species. As of now there are plenty of spawn-size gars around. Not saying we shouldn't keep an eye on them, but in terms of conservation there are more important things that require attention.

And, tbh, as long as Texas keep population of crappie/bass/catfish at current levels (and not change environment too dramatically) -- gars (as species) will be fine. Bigger ones will probably suffer (mostly thanks to guides that keep them visible to make some living) -- but this problem heals with time.

It's not just the trinity that people kill gar for no reason. And the problem has been going on for years. I remember as a kid we used to fish this place we called the sandpit near Aubrey off of fish trap. Man some days in the summer it would be so hard to fish for crappie there cause of all the dead gar laying around rotting. Never saw a 7 footer, but there were tons of 4-5s that were killed by bow fishermen. anyone here ever bow Fished? If so what's the thrill in it?

All this killing, for all these years and they still aren't close to being extinct. Such tragedy...

Hey, sure, let's annihilate a particular species until it's too late. Seen a dodo bird lately? How about passenger pigeon? Add the West African black rhino, the sea mink, the Caribbean monk seal, and the Tasmanian tiger to that list.

How many Gulf sturgeon do you see being caught along the gulf coast or east coast? Seen the thriving halibut fishery off the coast of Maine? Halibut used to be abundant there until they were fished to the brink of extinction. Ever heard of the Chinese paddlefish? You're not likely to since it appears to have been killed off. Try finding cutthroat trout in most of their native range from a mere 100 years ago. Sure, you can find them in some places, but not in the numbers and places they use to exist. Want to catch a giant tortuava in the Sea of Cortez? You better do it now while there's still a few left, surely since they still get caught, they're not close to being extinct.

The standard you propose is shortsighted and foolish, yet quite a few people have chimed in on this thread with similar thoughts (please understand I'm not singling you out - this is for everyone). Sure, let's systematically exterminate a huge fish everywhere we see it because we think it's ugly. And as long as there's still some around, then surely they're not in danger of extinction, right?

I wonder about the person who ate the last dodo bird - how did it taste?

We're fishermen. ALL of us - we're supposed to be concerned enough about our natural resources to CONSERVE them, so that we can keep on catching and enjoying fish of all kinds. More importantly, we should all want our children, grandchildren, and so on to have the same opportunities. Can't do that if we allow magnificent species to be wiped out.

From NWFS

Alligator gar historically inhabited waters and tributaries throughout the Mississippi River Valley from Ohio to Illinois and downstream into the estuary waters of the Gulf of Mexico. They may have even existed as far north as Iowa and as far west as Kansas and Nebraska. Currently known populations exist only in the lower Mississippi River Valley from Oklahoma to the west, Arkansas to the north, Texas and portions of Mexico to the south, and east to Florida.


In addition to a diminished range, their numbers have also substantially decreased over the past 50 years. Alligator gar were once abundant in many watersheds but are now difficult to find. They were considered in some places a highly sought after sportfish, but mostly they were considered a "trash fish" and were targeted for eradication or control. Historical pictures, accounts, and fishermen all support the substantial decline of the species. Studies in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana have shown that the alligator gar is very susceptible to overfishing. It has been classified as rare in Missouri, threatened in Illinois, and endangered in Arkansas, Kentucky, and is soon to be in Tennessee. The alligator gars, along with other gar, are important to their ecosystem in order to maintain the ecological balance.

+1

+2
i couldn't have said it better.

Well Said!

Are they extinct yet? Can someone let me know when they are put on the endangered species list? Do gar spread zebra mussels, if yes, we def need to eradicate them.

Gar don't spread Zebra Mussels, but carp apparently eat them....maybe we should put a limit on how many carp you can shoot.


Predation on zebra mussels (Dreissena polymorpha)
by common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
John K. Tucker, Frederick A. Cronin, Dirk W. Soergel
Long Term Resources Monitoring Program Pool 26
Illinois Natural History Survey
4134 Alby Street
Alton, Illinois 62002 USA
and
Charles H. Theiling
Ecological Specialists, Inc.
114 Algana Ct.
St. Peters, Missouri 63376, USA
ABSTRACT
We examined the gut contents of 31 common carp (Cyprinus
carpio) collected at Mississippi River Mile 217 in August 1995
for evidence of predation on zebra mussels (Dreissena
polymorpha). We found between 1 and 407 zebra mussel
beaks in 83.9% of the fish we examined. For all fish examined,
common carp contained 118.2 beaks per fish or about 59 zebra
mussels per fish. The survey did not indicate that larger fish
consumed more zebra mussels than smaller fish. Estimated
valve length for zebra mussels consumed ranged from 1.48 to
42.52 mm with a mean 11.79 mm (SE = 0.10 mm). We found
that larger fish tended to prey on larger zebra mussels than did
smaller fish. The general size range of zebra mussels
consumed by common carp overlapped the upper portion of the
size range of young-of-the-year zebra mussels living at the site
and the lower portion of the size range of older zebra mussels
living at the site.

Well, there you go! An answer to get rid of the zebra mussels, kill the gar and restock them with carp and maybe throw in a few of those jumping Asian carp too.

Was taught as a child: "don't kill what you don't plan to eat".

All this talk about gator gar has me itching to go bowfishing...

the age of killing native species for fun and not eating them is coming to an end more quickly than you realize.

NO they are not extinct in Texas or the US as a whole. If you read you will learn that they have been made extinct or very rare in a lot of States that they are native to.

Do you advocate continuing to kill them for nothing more than the "fun" of it until they gone here also?

Sure, whatever. I don't kill them at all because I don't bow fish, nor do I fish for them like some of the garmasters in this thread. It's just enjoyable to read the boohoo post here, so let them live, let them die. No concern to me, they seem to be quite plentiful in South Texas, maybe you fish huggers need to do a study on why they are thriving in the warmer regions of the state. Seems like a simple answer to me.

You have you special bag limits on Falcon and judging from your previous posts that's where you spend most of your time. Maybe you can start a thread on alligator gar on Falcon. That might very well merit discussion. Meanwhile a good portion of the rest of the state and certainly the country would seem to have legitimate concerns. As a sportsmen I find your statement that you "enjoy" reading about the decline of a native species disappointing. I would ask you to think of what kind of example that sets for the younger members on this site.

I'd be willing to bet that the younger generation are the ones doing this killing in the first place.

There's been lots of discussion on Falcon gar, that's what led to the 5 a day limit. Maybe you guys need to figure out why they can breed and grow so fast there, then you can fix the issue where you live.

Now I understand.

In particular you seem not care if other native species (especially gar) thrive or die unless it affects the LMB that you fish for on your Lake of choice.

That is fine I have no issue with that it is your right to think and feel that way.

My only issue with that is why not just say that upfront. Why make statements about the alligator gar population as a whole that are not true?

Fact: Studies across the historic range of alligator gar show they in rapid decline or gone altogether in most of that range.

Fact: No studies indicate that alligator gar have any impact on the LMB populations in a reservoir.

Fact: Falcon got an increase in the daily alligator gar limit in spite of the fact that the studies did show that they are the direct cause of the decline in LMB on Lake Falcon.

So tell us has the LMB population on Falcon rebounded? And if it has, was that rebound due to the increase in the gar bag limit? Or was it due to better conditions such as increased water levels in the Lake?

Dang Dale, you almost got me. Just a few problems in your theory though, I don't fish at Falcon. There's also quite a few gar in Choke too, although I really have a hatred towards those pesky little longnosed gar. If we're going to conserve Alligator gar then we need to make all fishing (rod & reel, bow, trot line, jug line) illegal for them. No more YouTube for people to benefit from.

So are we ok with people who kill gar and eat the tiny bit of meat that they contain or are against anybody that kills them or are we against anybody that fishes for them since they know the extreme danger that gar are in (everywheres except for South Texas of course)?

Longnose Gar is pretty much nothing but eatable meat! Just sayin....

You've posted over 30 times about fishing on falcon this year. "The lady doth protest too much, me thinks"

No, no, I said there are plenty of them at Falcon & Choke and that they are thriving in South Texas. So what is the gars real reason for its decrease in population? Y'all think bow hunters are killing all the gar and I think it's "climate change". I sure wish you guys would hurry up and get gar fishing banned.

Did you guys see the other thread where the state is stocking gar?


If the gar population is in such bad shape, why isn't there a better stocking program? Just seems odd to me that you guys are claiming how much trouble the gar are in and every thing else isn't pointing to that problem.

Your really fishing now.

It does not much matter what your Lake of Choice is, if it is not Falcon then well I guessed wrong. That does not change the thought that you seem to have a beef against Gar.

I have eaten lots of gar both long nose, and alligator gar. While they are a pain to clean there is lots of meat on them and they eat just fine. You claiming that they have a "tiny bit" of meat shows that you have either never actually seen one or you are trying to shift focus (how much meat they have is irrelevant to the discussion).

I am perfectly OK with catching gar on rod n reel, throw line, trot line, jug line, even the dreaded bow and arrow. Again what does that have to do with should the gar have be managed for the health of the species just like we do most all fish in Texas?

What I am against is the wanton waste of any native species of fish. I am against killing any native fish and dumping it.

If you kill it utilize it.

I'm with you Dale, you guys just keep confusing me. First it's "no bowfishing", then it's conserve, now it's ok to catch & eat... no wonder these things are disappearing, even you guys can't make up your minds and y'all just don't read my post. I said I don't kill gar and my true hatred is with long noses gar.

I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say "you guys keep confusing me", or "even you guys can't make up your minds".

Search my posts, there are not that many of them. I never said "no bow fishing" or anything of the sort never have. I have said that most bow fisherman do not utilize what they kill.

I have been completely clear on the issue. No wanton waste, no killing of native species of fish that you have no intention of utilizing. In fact I'll go a step further.

I don't really care if you catch it in cast net, with a telephone or a spear as long as you stay within the legal limits and fully utilize what you kill.


Be honest OK. I really think you believe that gar can/do effect the LMB either in overall numbers or Trophy potential.

If I am wrong about that please correct me by honestly answering the following question:

Why do you have a beef with long nose gar or any other species for that matter.?

In my opinion the long nosed are what eat most of the baitfish and they are really over populated down here. I believe the lack of baitfish is a lot of the reason why some lakes get so bad. These are the filthy little things that have very little meat on them. Problem is nobody wants to shoot them because they are little and nobody wants to catch them because they are little.

I know you think you have me pegged, you don't... I fish for bass, catfish, white bass and I keep none of them. Fish taste nasty.

I would not bother responding, he's just trolling.

I'm trolling??? Which category were you in again: the ban bowfishing, the ban all fishing or the catch what you eat group? Ah yes, you were the "conservation" group, whatever that's supposed to entail.