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#11932886 - 11/14/16 12:34 AM Interesting read about myths of ethanol
Bobby Milam Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 07/13/14
Posts: 2019
Loc: Arlington
I have read threads about the horror stories people have about getting ethanol in their tanks and what chemicals they use to combat it. I came across an article about it and then began researching more articles and they pretty much all same the same thing. I thought that it was interesting and I'd post it here.

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

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#11933028 - 11/14/16 07:13 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
jackiekennedyfishingguide Online   content
Extreme Angler

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 2942
Loc: Cedar Creek Lake-Fairfield
One works for BP the other for Chevron!
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#11933118 - 11/14/16 08:14 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
gary purdy Online   content
TFF Guru

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 10537
Loc: Littlefield Tx & Lake A. H. US...
I don`t have to wonder about the effects of ethanol, I see the ill effects pretty often and its not good.
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#11933238 - 11/14/16 09:18 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
ssmith Online   content
Extreme Angler

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 2453
Loc: scotland tx
if its on the internet it has to be true.

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#11933373 - 11/14/16 10:21 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
spankyttx Online   content
Pro Angler

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 843
Loc: Denton Tx.
it is pretty much spot on, the thing they left out was time periods with and without additives on phase separation
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#11933404 - 11/14/16 10:38 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
Muzzlebrake Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 12/26/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Euless
So, if ethanol does not harm engines and fuel systems why does Harley Davidson void your motorcycle warranty if it's discovered you ran gas with as much as 15% ethanol no matter what is listed at the gas pump? The Ethanol lobby is alive and well and highly subsidized by the gumbmint. Ethanol producers would go broke without the subsidy since it costs more to make than it sells for. Follow the money trail. http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/...-based-biofuels


Edited by Muzzlebrake (11/14/16 11:23 AM)
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#11933479 - 11/14/16 11:15 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
spankyttx Online   content
Pro Angler

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 843
Loc: Denton Tx.
Small amounts of ethanol are considered safe to run in most vehicles. However, ethanol is more corrosive and burns hotter than gasoline which could cause some engines to misfire, stall or overheat. It also emits more nitrous oxide and formaldehyde than gasoline and could potentially damage fuel pumps, lines, fittings and tanks
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#11933524 - 11/14/16 11:35 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: spankyttx]
Muzzlebrake Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 12/26/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Euless
Originally Posted By: spankyttx
Small amounts of ethanol are considered safe to run in most vehicles. However, ethanol is more corrosive and burns hotter than gasoline which could cause some engines to misfire, stall or overheat. It also emits more nitrous oxide and formaldehyde than gasoline and could potentially damage fuel pumps, lines, fittings and tanks


Actually ethanol or alcohol burns much cooler than pure gas. Pure gas has a much higher btu content and molecule for molecule makes more power whereas heat = power. Stoichiometric value for alcohol is 9:1 vs 14.7:1 for pure gas thus it takes 1.6 time as much alcohol or ethanol(fancy word for grain alcohol) to make the same amount of heat. Ever wonder why you get better fuel mileage running on pure gas?

The general consensus is ethanol burns “cooler” than gas. Technically that is correct but what does that really mean? There’s a lot more to it and I’m throwing out my analysis (btw, this is not copied from any textbook or external resource--just my own back-of-the-envelope calcs so I make no assurances).

The burning question in my mind has been how does cooler burning correlate to cylinder temps and power? That is, how can a fuel that burns “cooler” generate more power? How much “cooler” does it burn? Are the EGTs cooler? To explain this, I did some calcs--the results seem reasonable so I thought I would post them here with explanation.

If you take one mole (6.02 x 10^23 molecules) of octane (gasoline) and one mole of ethanol and combust them in air, octane would produce 5460 KJ of heat compared to 1368 KJ for ethanol (eqs 1 and 2). The heat given off from the combustion reaction can be experimentally measured to a very precise number. In this case, more heat is evolved from combusting one mole of octane than one mole of ethanol, in fact, about 4 times as much.

C8H18 + 12.5O2 → 8CO2 + 9H2O DH (heat released) = -5460 KJ/mol [eq 1]
C2H5OH + 3O2 → 2CO2 + 3H2O DH = -1368 KJ/mol [eq 2]
(note: negative sign just means heat is released; more negative = more heat)

So in this sense, ethanol burns cooler.

Now, let’s take a look at what happens inside the cylinder when the oxygen content is the limiting factor. For this, we need to look at the combustion equations where the oxygen content is set as the limiting reagent (i.e. 12.5 moles). For every 12.5 moles of O2, you can burn 1 mole of octane and 4.16 moles of ethanol. So you can see in this case, you actually get more heat from ethanol per unit oxygen (approximately 4.4% more) [eq 3].

C8H18 + 12.5O2 → 8CO2 + 9H2O DH (heat released) = -5460 KJ/mol
4.16C2H5OH + 12.5O2 → 8.3 CO2 + 12.5 H2O DH = -5700 KJ/mol [eq 3]

If we scale down the last equation by 4.4% such that the thermal energy produced from burning ethanol equals that of octane, the equation becomes

3.98 C2H5OH + 11.97 O2 → 7.95CO2 + 11.97 H2O DH = -5700/1.044 = -5460 KJ/mole [eq 4]

So how does ethanol burn cooler, yet produce more power? Well, power is a result of cylinder pressure. For that, we need to take into consideration the total number of moles of combustion products from octane and ethanol. For octane, you get a total of 17 moles of combustion products (eq. 1). For ethanol, you get a total of approximately 20 moles of combustion products (eq 4). That corresponds to approximately 18% more moles of exhaust products from burning ethanol at the same thermal energy level as octane.

Since P=nRT/V, pressure is proportional to not only T (temperature) but also n (# of moles of total exhaust products) at constant V. Well, if EtOH produces 18% more moles of gas at the same thermal energy level as octane, then the temp can drop by 18% to produce the same cylinder pressure. Hence, ethanol can burn cooler to give the same pressure as burning octane because it produces a greater amount of combustion products.

Here’s the rub--everyone wants max power, so you end up burning as much ethanol as there is O2 in the cylinder which thereby produces 4.4% more heat than octane with even greater cylinder pressures. So while ethanol can burn cooler and produce more power, in reality, we end up burning as much ethanol as possible to get max power. This results in higher cylinder temps than gas (but more power too ).
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#11933527 - 11/14/16 11:36 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
Muzzlebrake Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 12/26/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Euless
confused yet smile
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Infidel and proud of it.

From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the earth."

Then He made the earth round...and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

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#11933538 - 11/14/16 11:44 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Muzzlebrake]
Rick Collis Online   content
Angler

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 409
Loc: Lake Fork, Texas
All that info gives me a headache.LOL. I have been burning 10% ethanol in my Merc outboards for the last 5 or 6 years without one single problem. I think the trick is to put as much in your tanks as you think you will burn in a short time. I never put over 10 gallons at a time in my tanks, that way it does not have a chance to get old. I also always run Quikleen or Ring Free, no aftermarket additives.
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#11933547 - 11/14/16 11:48 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
redchevy Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 01/25/05
Posts: 6169
Loc: texas
I'm with spanky. I have ran e10 in everything from my 1957 year model 2-stroke outboard to our 2015 model 4 stroke Suzuki and a lot of stuff in between. All lawn equimpment, chainsaws, generator etc, and never had a problem with it. Like any other fuel if you let it sit too long it will go bad. People neglect their stuff and have to blame it on something, I believe that is the correct answer. Most boats sit outside when stored and are operated in marine environments, that's why they have more water contamination than anything else, not ethanol.

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#11933908 - 11/14/16 02:46 PM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Muzzlebrake]
Bobby Milam Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 07/13/14
Posts: 2019
Loc: Arlington
Originally Posted By: Muzzlebrake
So, if ethanol does not harm engines and fuel systems why does Harley Davidson void your motorcycle warranty if it's discovered you ran gas with as much as 15% ethanol no matter what is listed at the gas pump? The Ethanol lobby is alive and well and highly subsidized by the gumbmint. Ethanol producers would go broke without the subsidy since it costs more to make than it sells for. Follow the money trail. http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/...-based-biofuels


This was about 10%. 15% supposedly will cause issues in a boat motor unless it was made to run on it.

Why does Harley void the warranty, because they can and they don't really like standing behind their stuff. I know of someone who had Harley void their warranty because they had a flag on the back of their ultra classic. They said the flag flapping in the wind caused too much drag and that caused the mechanical failure.

Mercury put out a report on ethanol and they say it is fine in their motors

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#11934118 - 11/14/16 04:18 PM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Muzzlebrake]
Allison1 Online   sleepy
TFF Guru

Registered: 12/14/03
Posts: 16386
Loc: Grand Prairie, Tx
Originally Posted By: Muzzlebrake
So, if ethanol does not harm engines and fuel systems why does Harley Davidson void your motorcycle warranty if it's discovered you ran gas with as much as 15% ethanol no matter what is listed at the gas pump? The Ethanol lobby is alive and well and highly subsidized by the gumbmint. Ethanol producers would go broke without the subsidy since it costs more to make than it sells for. Follow the money trail. http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/...-based-biofuels


You are several years behind the times. I think the last of the Ethanol subsidies ended in 2013 and ethanol is about the same cost as gasoline today. Back when gas was three bucks it was much higher in cost.
HD and most engines are only designed to run E10. E15 is beyond their spec so I don't blame them for not warranting if they run more Ethanol than the engine is spec'd for.


All the myth talk sounds right. You don't really have a problem with it so long as the engine is designed to use it and you don't leave it long enough to gather more water than it will absorb.
This is not the same in diesels. I know its a different fuel but some injection systems in diesels have gone bad over time due to running fuel with water emulsified in the diesel. Even though it mixes the inside of the injection system degrades over time and the car manufacturers don't always fix it as a warranty repair.



Edited by Allison1 (11/14/16 04:19 PM)

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#11934949 - 11/15/16 06:58 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
gary purdy Online   content
TFF Guru

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 10537
Loc: Littlefield Tx & Lake A. H. US...
There is a big difference between corn and saw grass or sugar cane based ethanol. Corn is the worst possible base.
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“The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything” GOD IS GOOD

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#11935382 - 11/15/16 11:51 AM Re: Interesting read about myths of ethanol [Re: Bobby Milam]
Muzzlebrake Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 12/26/14
Posts: 1005
Loc: Euless
The people that do repairs and work on and tune these engines on a daily basis know what ethanol does. They like it because it helps keep them in work fixing all this [censored]. Any of them will tell you that an engine built to run on pure gas needs to be re-tuned to run properly and make the same power when using E10, E15 or any oxygenated racing fuel. Re-tuning a carbureted engine usually result in increasing the main jet by minimum 2 sizes and sometimes 4 sizes and the intermediate and idle jets get bumped up in order to keep them from running too lean and doing major damage. Computer controlled injected engines use the o2 sensors to collect data and change the bias voltage/duty cycle to the injectors to richen fuel supply. People running old equipment on E10 and not getting them properly tuned are asking for failures.
This does not include failure from the different materials that fail due to contact with the corn likker gas.:)
_________________________
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From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the earth."

Then He made the earth round...and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

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