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#11782263 - 08/17/16 12:34 PM Are we working too hard?
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
Are we working too hard?

Do we spend too much time pouring over minute details on the finish when perhaps it isn't really necessary?

Are we making lures for fishermen, instead of fish?

What are the things that are important for fish to see in a bait ? Some people believe that only contrast is really what's necessary. Some people believe the colors are necessary, but a lot of those colors disappear as we get below five or 10 feet in depth. And in shallow water, is a bass really going to notice a difference between an ultra realistic bluegill finish and one that is just a basic finish? For fast-moving baits like lipless rattlers, do the fish even have a chance to notice details? Certainly on something like a suspending jerk bait fish would have more time to look the lures over and assess the situation, but fast-moving lures do they even see it? For instance, things like spinner baits are made to mimic baitfish, yet look nothing like fish. How about other fish, like walleye, that have rods and cones in their eyes? Sure, they can see red, but read disappears at depth anyway.

Hmmm. These are things that I go through in my mind. What is important, what isn't? Should we spend the time making ultra realistic finishes? Certainly it's not going to hurt, but is it necessary?

Just trying to spark up a conversation ....

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#11782670 - 08/17/16 04:34 PM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
swalker9513 Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 6291
I don't know that it makes much difference to the fish, they are mostly instinctively reacting. With that said, they do show some level of memory or conditioned. KVD Sexy Shad square bills result in a hook in the face, a little time out of water and a splash down. So, maybe something that is a little different will get that reaction strike that KVD bait misses on. I paint them the way I do, because it keeps ME interested.
_________________________


www.wildcranks.com or find them at Fun-N-Sun in Hurst.

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#11782724 - 08/17/16 05:08 PM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
basscat dad Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 1072
Loc: savannah, texas
really no way to tell how much difference the details make. no way to do a control study using two identical lures painted with different levels of detail in the exact same scenario and catch the same fish. that being said, detail is a reflection of the lurist pride he/she takes in their work and their appreciation for realism. when i show somebody a bait i've painted i want their jaw to drop. but "detail" covers a lot of ground. a holographic 2.5 with two or three very light colors is detail to me. likewise a blue gill or sun fish might have 6-8 layers of color to get the look i want and that's also detail. and a ghost bait with almost no color at all is detailed.
you're right on the money with colors fading with depth. most of my fish come from 10' or shallower. admittedly i'm a top water freak and my deep skills are pretty minimal so color for me is very relevant. if i can pitch into the reeds or drag a frog across grass or lillies, or work a crank bait along the grass edge i'm a happy camper.
ok end of my diatribe. keep painting. all of you guys who are new to the forum and/or just starting to paint are a great inspirations. i love to see the new ideas and patterns.


Edited by basscat dad (08/17/16 05:10 PM)
_________________________
"dreamers have tomorrow if today does not come true"

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#11782918 - 08/17/16 06:51 PM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
You guys make some excellent points. I do believe that a lot of the things we do for ourselves, and they may not really affect the fish at all.

For instance, I just got finished painting a splatterback crankbait. I did a lot of fancy things to it, like using pearl white paint on the bottom, and then using color shift blue over all of the black so that it looks either black or midnight blue depending on the angle. Then I went back and painted a little bit of the black over the eyes so they actually looks black around the eyeballs. In addition I highlighted the gills, and put a little bit of red on the belly. Personally, I think it looks great !!! BUT....Honestly, I could have just painted it white, done a black splatter on the back, thrown on some eyes, and it probably would have caught just as many fish. So I did all those little things because *I* think it looks cool.

I'm sure there are patterns where details matter. At least I believe that in my heart. I do agree that the most important thing about the details is that it shows the pride that's being put into the making of the lure.

And maybe it will be the difference that makes it 13 pound bass tighten your line !

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#11783873 - 08/18/16 09:55 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Donald Harper Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 11998
Loc: Justin, TX.
All good points and questions that you will always have in our lake were the bites are scarce each and every day. When you do have a good day was it because you just happened upon a good area with feeding fish or was it the bait that you were throwing? Could it have been done with the basic bait schemes or was it the excellent paint schemes used?

This is my take on the whole scheme of things. Big Bass did not get to that point by making mistakes. They want a bait that holds as many of the senses that they are looking for on any given lake for the weather condition on that day. Smaller schooling Bass will lessen this talent to a degree; but with a big fish your efforts will sew up the deal.

Here is my testing grounds of over 27 years and what I have experienced. To really know what works and what doesn't you have to be in waters that produce a lot of Bass. Mexico has given me that potential of catching 100 Bass per day with 50 of those over 5 lbs. each day. In less than a half day of fishing I can tell you whether it is a worthy scheme or not. All baits must have the schemes to produce that number. Veer away form that and you will come away with only 70 Bass per day. To me this is a huge difference. I have seen this happen day in and day out with customers trying to throw and produce even with their confidence baits.

Here are some things that work in our shallow water fishing.
- Techniques are just as important as the scheme of things.
- Crank baits with a wide wobble work best.
- Silent running cranks produce more fish. The hooks play a tune they really like.
- The deeper the hook groves become, the more it is worn the better it gets.
- My best cranks and top waters are worn down to the bone under the paint.
- Paint to match the bait fish.
- Size makes a difference and it is not always large.
- Fast moving baits like spinner baits and traps are no exception.
- You cannot pull a bait fast enough to get it away from a Bass that thinks it is real.
- Top water baits that you can make do the Dying Quiver produce best.
- This action is 180 degree turns; basically sitting in one spot.
- The Ghost stripe as a lateral line on all hard baits produce twice as many strikes.
- Spinner bait blades in size, color and combinations are key factors.
- Blades must be put together for water color, different weather conditions, depth you are fishing and size of bait fish.
- Skirts require the same consideration.
- Living Rubber skirting absolutely catches more Bass without the flash.
- Using the right scent on your skirts and plastics will produce 1/3 more fish.
- If I had to pick one skirt color for a spinner bait it would be the 3 stripe pattern of BLUE/Black stripe, Chartreuse/Black stripe and WHITE/Chart. stripe; all in one skirt.
- In plastics Watermelon/Red is the best producer with the tail slightly tipped Chart..
- The Zoom Brush hog and Lizard are the two best produces and it is a must to have the packages scented. Brush Hogs get Crayfish and Lizards get Night Crawler.
_________________________
Each person you work with holds some promise to your future success.

www.lakeoviachic.com - Booking Mexico Trips
Shallow Water Mapping - Custom Spinner Baits - Jigs -Spooks
Pure Extracts - Minnow-Night Crawler-Crayfish-Craylic



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#11783918 - 08/18/16 10:16 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
Donald - great observations, and lots of interesting points. I would think that a decent amount of it would hold true for other locales...of course different water conditions, temps, forage, etc would factor in. But I find it interesting that you have the best results with worn baits. And I agree, big bass tend to be a bit more wary. Anyway, thank you for weighing in on the conversation...I learned quite a bit !!!

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#11783930 - 08/18/16 10:24 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Donald Harper Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 11998
Loc: Justin, TX.
I came running back with another though on the worn baits as opposed to new baits. It takes a long time to get that shine off a bait. What top coat could you use to reduce the shine. Seems it would reduce this time span thing if it began to wear a lot faster. Maybe just some tough paint without the top coat would work better and produce more fish from day one. Then it will get to that best catching point much faster. Glitter and shine are two different things to me. I am a true believer in the glitter as long as it matches the scale pattern of the bait fish. I love the Hologram glitter in the lateral line stripes that I put on my spooks.
_________________________
Each person you work with holds some promise to your future success.

www.lakeoviachic.com - Booking Mexico Trips
Shallow Water Mapping - Custom Spinner Baits - Jigs -Spooks
Pure Extracts - Minnow-Night Crawler-Crayfish-Craylic



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#11783955 - 08/18/16 10:37 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
I've thought about scotchbriting the gloss finish on baits for a more "satin" look ...take away some shine.

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#11784034 - 08/18/16 11:14 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Donald Harper Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 11998
Loc: Justin, TX.
I guess rattle traps in chrome have the worst paint job ever. My best trap almost has none left. Once they get to that certain point though the catching slows way down and again does not start picking up on a new one until half is worn off. I usually take fine sand paper and wet sand those ares off just to get started catching sooner.

I would really like to have a couple of 3/4 oz. painted in the worn scheme:
- Down to the bone about half and half in the areas around the hooks.
- It is important that the hooks wear through the paint fast and start cutting that grove pattern in the plastic.
- The hook area would get no paint using a bone blank with definitely no top coat in that area.
- The pattern is the Hologram Foil Gizzard Shad with the Blue/hologram scale pattern on the back.
- The kill dot is on the tail section as high toward the back as possible.
- It would need a 1/8 inch Wide lateral line stripe in Dark Turquoise with Hologram glitter from the eye to the tip of the tail, just passing under the kill dot to the tip of the tail.

I leave for Mexico the second week of Sept.. This is prime time to test crank baits. I will give a full report with pictures if I can get two of these to take.
_________________________
Each person you work with holds some promise to your future success.

www.lakeoviachic.com - Booking Mexico Trips
Shallow Water Mapping - Custom Spinner Baits - Jigs -Spooks
Pure Extracts - Minnow-Night Crawler-Crayfish-Craylic



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#11784049 - 08/18/16 11:22 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Rhino68W Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 5212
Loc: Benbrook, TX
Only one way to find out.

Paint one squarebill green pumpkin, one white, one chart, and one black and let a newbie crankbait fisherman like me fish with it. No lines, no dots, no eyes, no under side colors. Nothing, Just solid color.

If they work well then there might be some over thinking going on.
_________________________
I'm smarter than you're.

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#11784059 - 08/18/16 11:26 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Donald Harper]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
Originally Posted By: Donald Harper
I guess rattle traps in chrome have the worst paint job ever. My best trap almost has none left. Once they get to that certain point though the catching slows way down and again does not start picking up on a new one until half is worn off. I usually take fine sand paper and wet sand those ares off just to get started catching sooner.

I would really like to have a couple of 3/4 oz. painted in the worn scheme:
- Down to the bone about half and half in the areas around the hooks.
- It is important that the hooks wear through the paint fast and start cutting that grove pattern in the plastic.
- The hook area would get no paint using a bone blank with definitely no top coat in that area.
- The pattern is the Hologram Foil Gizzard Shad with the Blue/hologram scale pattern on the back.
- The kill dot is on the tail section as high toward the back as possible.
- It would need a 1/8 inch Wide lateral line stripe in Dark Turquoise with Hologram glitter from the eye to the tip of the tail, just passing under the kill dot to the tip of the tail.

I leave for Mexico the second week of Sept.. This is prime time to test crank baits. I will give a full report with pictures if I can get two of these to take.


If I have time and can get some rattletrap blanks, I'll see if I can get some done for you and sent your way. Would be interesting to find out what happens with them.

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#11784066 - 08/18/16 11:28 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rhino68W]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
Originally Posted By: Rhino68W
Only one way to find out.

Paint one squarebill green pumpkin, one white, one chart, and one black and let a newbie crankbait fisherman like me fish with it. No lines, no dots, no eyes, no under side colors. Nothing, Just solid color.

If they work well then there might be some over thinking going on.


"No pattern" is not the same thing as " time consuming, elaborate pattern".

smile

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#11784070 - 08/18/16 11:30 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Rhino68W Offline
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 5212
Loc: Benbrook, TX
Makes sense. I just feel if a plain jane color CB catches fish then maybe some people are over thinking it. Kind of like jig skirt colors.
_________________________
I'm smarter than you're.

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#11784074 - 08/18/16 11:31 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Rocket Surgeon]
Donald Harper Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 11998
Loc: Justin, TX.
I will be glad to help with the expense or trade out what I have.
Spooks - spinner baits - jigs and Scent. Just let me know what you need and if not send me a bill.
_________________________
Each person you work with holds some promise to your future success.

www.lakeoviachic.com - Booking Mexico Trips
Shallow Water Mapping - Custom Spinner Baits - Jigs -Spooks
Pure Extracts - Minnow-Night Crawler-Crayfish-Craylic



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#11784091 - 08/18/16 11:44 AM Re: Are we working too hard? [Re: Donald Harper]
Rocket Surgeon Online   content
Outdoorsman

Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 161
Originally Posted By: Donald Harper
I will be glad to help with the expense or trade out what I have.
Spooks - spinner baits - jigs and Scent. Just let me know what you need and if not send me a bill.


Cool. I'll do a little research and see what I can find out there. Not sure if anyone's making a holographic lipless blank, but I can probably work something up. I'm heading out of town for the weekend, and I'll have a lot of time on the tour bus to do a little research. I will let you know what I find!

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