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#11579871 - 05/03/16 05:49 AM carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them
lawmann Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 3736
Loc: Fort Worth

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#11580375 - 05/03/16 10:38 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
Fishbreeder Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 1269
Loc: Brazoria County, Texas


This is bad science, bad as it gets. The article is true, however, if not entirely accurate. But the use of pathogens as a means to control animal populations has been scientifically discredited long ago. This amounts to playing with biological fire, when with virus' on the order of recombinant DNA.

So then, largemouth bass are a problem in other parts of the world as an introduced invasive species. They have their own viral pathogens. These could be propagated and released to the wild, eventually making its way back to North America and devastating the bass fishery. Food for thought. Carp are bad to some folks, bass are bad to others.

This is one very slippery slope and methodology that has been denounced by FAO and other worldwide food production agencies. Placing at risk the world's entire fishery through the propagation and release of environmental pathogens, even with the very best of intentions, is not the domain of ANY governmental agency.

Once released, a lot of carp will die. A lot of farmed carp will die, a lot of carp people once fished for recreationally and commercially will die, and the virus will not recognize international borders nor will it know the difference between a "bad carp in the wild" and a good carp needed for humans.

Carp are among the most important protein sources for humans on the planet, and although problematic in some places, they are on the whole extremely important to mankind.

I've seen the effects of KHV (carp Herpes Virus) in the wild here around Houston. It does reduce carp populations for awhile, but in a few years they rebound having developed a natural immunity. Meanwhile anybody that fishes for carp, farms carp for food or profit, breeds ornamental koi, or otherwise depends upon the species is at risk for total loss.


This is not a positive step and will not achieve any desirable long term results worth taking such risks.

Brett Rowley
Fisheries Biologist
Brett's Fish Farm/The Good Luck Fishing and Hunting Club

Here is some background on KHV (aka CyHV3).

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm113

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#11580402 - 05/03/16 10:52 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
fitter2259 Online   content
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 4772
Loc: Humble, Texas
Its not nice to fool mother nature.
_________________________

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#11580427 - 05/03/16 11:04 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
fitter2259 Online   content
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 12/29/11
Posts: 4772
Loc: Humble, Texas
Its whacky azzed ideas like this that make people so skeptical of public sector management in all its forms. Frankly I'm surprised this information was even made available for public consumption and didn't take place under the radar. I wonder how big of a fish kill it would cause if you released herpes into a lake?
_________________________

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#11580681 - 05/03/16 01:13 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: fitter2259]
Fishbreeder Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 1269
Loc: Brazoria County, Texas
Originally Posted By: fitter2259
Its whacky azzed ideas like this that make people so skeptical of public sector management in all its forms. Frankly I'm surprised this information was even made available for public consumption and didn't take place under the radar. I wonder how big of a fish kill it would cause if you released herpes into a lake?


I see where the idea comes from, carp introduced to new habitats can be hugely detrimental to indigenous flora and fauna. However, ecosystems adapt to the new presence over time. Sometimes to the point that the new species becomes an important part of the new ecosystem. Common carp are so entrenched into US waters that they are now considered indigenous.

A lot of those carp came from Japan right after Admiral Perry opened the country to international trade. In return they got rainbow trout. Ecological disaster on both sides of the world, in the 1850's!

There is a lot out there on both sides of this issue.

Sometimes our problem becomes one of tunnel vision. Its a big world and a lot of diversity. One persons fine catch is another's invasive species.

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#11580854 - 05/03/16 02:46 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
blooper961 Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 6017
This is right up there with the govt killing grass in lakes that are bad,
and kills all the grass and the fish go away permanently.

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#11581933 - 05/03/16 10:44 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
361V Online   content
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 4027
Loc: somervell county
And I thought planting a few grass carp to control hydrilla by people who had no idea the extent of what they were doing was a bad idea.....
_________________________

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#11582060 - 05/04/16 05:14 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: fitter2259]
lawmann Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 3736
Loc: Fort Worth
Originally Posted By: fitter2259
Its not nice to fool mother nature.


Yep, like introducing an invasive species like the common carp into our waterways wasn't fooling with mother nature. If those egg vacuums weren't in our lakes, I doubt TP&W would have to restock game fish every year like they have to.

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#11582341 - 05/04/16 08:49 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
Fishbreeder Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 1269
Loc: Brazoria County, Texas
Originally Posted By: lawmann
Originally Posted By: fitter2259
Its not nice to fool mother nature.


Yep, like introducing an invasive species like the common carp into our waterways wasn't fooling with mother nature. If those egg vacuums weren't in our lakes, I doubt TP&W would have to restock game fish every year like they have to.


Its a nice vision, a big world without people and transportation, but the common carp is now part of our ecosystem as much as we are. Yep, by "we" I'm talking about the second invasion of North America by modern man, in our case, mostly Western European. We brought with us things like, horses, cows, chickens, pigs, Chinese tallow trees, and cotton. None of which is indigenous, all of which and more supports our modern day population. Like carp and tilapia.

The thing a lot of us fail to realize is that species like carp and tilapia have adapted so well BECAUSE they are in non-native environments. Nothing "native" about a powerplant cooling reservoir or irrigation storage reservoir. Or a river being used to take away municipal, industrial and agricultural wastes. These environments are much more suited to carps and tilapias than bass and walleye. It is the fight for habitat and a reasonable clean and natural environment as much as one against invasive species.

Plus we practice a double standard when it comes to such things. Oh its so wonderful that North Texans have a fishery of non-native sport species like walleye and sauger. But oh what a problem those tilapia down in the lower Rio Grande have become. The tilapia that help to provide a source of high quality protein to thousands of poor South Texans with cast nets and simple soda can spin rigs. We blame the tilapia for the loss of sport species in such places without consideration of the fact that the water is just too salty and polluted for anything else. We say a non-native sport fish for rich sport fishermen is "good" but a non-native source of cheap protein for poor folks is "bad."

There was a time when Texas had an "Exotic Species Task Force," which I served on. It is a big problem and we need to be sure and address it from all sides. But one thing we will never be able to do is turn back the clock and close the barn door. We will also not be able to maintain a reasonable lifestyle for 20+ million Texans without such things as cows, chickens, sheep, carp and tilapia.

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#11582626 - 05/04/16 10:55 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
PKfishin Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 09/28/12
Posts: 2235
Loc: Texas
I'm not for that but I would like to see TPWD get off the duff and go electrofish thos carp out of our lakes. They could knock down populations significantly now that they are in the shallows.
_________________________
John 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee.

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#11583560 - 05/04/16 06:51 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: PKfishin]
Fishbreeder Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/07/10
Posts: 1269
Loc: Brazoria County, Texas
Originally Posted By: PKfishin
I'm not for that but I would like to see TPWD get off the duff and go electrofish thos carp out of our lakes. They could knock down populations significantly now that they are in the shallows.


Electrofishing is more for taking samples than for catching a lot of fish.

For carp removal, you just can't beat a trammel net. However, when in the shallows, a lot of carp can be shot with a bow, gigged, or seined out.

I did a lot of carp removals in private waters winter before last. Commons, grassers, tilapia and anything that was eating the weeds the giverment says havta grow in subdivision lakes. Our best net was a trammel net 8' deep with 4" center mesh and 16" trammels. Most bass pass right through, but big carp, gar, and catfish get caught inside the trammels. If done in winter the fish can be salvaged for food, or even taken alive to a place they want such fish.

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#11583904 - 05/04/16 08:59 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
lambcotx Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 214
Egg vacuums is right, carp and goos go on the bank.

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#11584280 - 05/05/16 04:52 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: Fishbreeder]
lawmann Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 3736
Loc: Fort Worth
Originally Posted By: Fishbreeder
Originally Posted By: PKfishin
I'm not for that but I would like to see TPWD get off the duff and go electrofish thos carp out of our lakes. They could knock down populations significantly now that they are in the shallows.


Electrofishing is more for taking samples than for catching a lot of fish.

For carp removal, you just can't beat a trammel net. However, when in the shallows, a lot of carp can be shot with a bow, gigged, or seined out.

I did a lot of carp removals in private waters winter before last. Commons, grassers, tilapia and anything that was eating the weeds the giverment says havta grow in subdivision lakes. Our best net was a trammel net 8' deep with 4" center mesh and 16" trammels. Most bass pass right through, but big carp, gar, and catfish get caught inside the trammels. If done in winter the fish can be salvaged for food, or even taken alive to a place they want such fish.


I kill tens of thousands of them every year on Whitney by bowfishing and it never makes a dent. They are like fire ants but worse.


Edited by lawmann (05/05/16 04:53 AM)

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#11584929 - 05/05/16 11:05 AM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: Fishbreeder]
PKfishin Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 09/28/12
Posts: 2235
Loc: Texas
I've been thinking of catching them on rod and reel and composting them for fertilizer. Carp are worthless. They are not native to north America and need eradication.
_________________________
John 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee.

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#11585409 - 05/05/16 03:15 PM Re: carp are so detrimental to the ecosystem herpes is being used to kill them [Re: lawmann]
TEXAS TWO GUNS Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 691
Loc: Texas
Oh wow, you guys better watch out for the carpers, they are steaming over in the rough fish section.

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