This is my first post on this thread so I certainly haven't been dogging any of the guides for coming down to Tawakoni and running trips. But, all the posts I have seen in this thread speak to numbers of Hybrids/Striper. I see nothing that speaks to the quality of the fish, which on Tawakoni has been very good for many years now. That is my area of concern more-so than quantity. I can go almost anywhere that has them and catch fish, I love Tawakoni not only because it is basically in my back yard, but because of the quality of the fish.

Tawakoni, as a fishery, is a completely different dynamic than Texoma. If Tawakoni is treated just like Texoma is, the fishery will not sustain it's status. What will the guides do then?

I see a lot of talk here about bag limits, but none about minimum length. Why not up the minimum length on Tawakoni to say, 20" or 22", forcing people to return those now barely legal fish, keeping the average size of the fish where it is or better? I am not a numbers guy, I'd rather catch 3 truly nice fish than 10 average fish. And an average fish on Tawakoni is considered above average on just about any other lake in the region. I realize we all have our own views, and don't seek to detract from anyone's personal view of the situation. I simply feel there are other ways to accommodate the added pressure without doing unnecessary damage to the fishery, and simply throwing more fish in the lake will not be beneficial for at least a few years down the road. Unfortunately, TPWD is largely reactionary on things like this, so any changes on their part would likely be too little, too late.

(Tangent)
One thing I will say, I hope the guides coming down here from Texoma will do, is leave their "Texoma Ways" behind. I refuse to even go to Texoma anymore, and guides are the reason why. I have experienced, myself, and heard many other stories about guides being complete freaking jerk-offs on Texoma. I know it's not not all Texoma guides, but it is more than a few for sure. I hope those coming into our back yard will respect the fact that we regulars on Tawakoni have a harmony with the regular guides, to the point where I don't witness the jackassery that I've seen take place on Texoma. Because I, for one, will not be so amicable as I have been on Texoma. I will not take my toys and go home, I am home. I certainly don't own the lake, and would never expect anyone to treat me as if I do. But the level of disrespect I've witnessed and dealt with on Texoma is shameful in my opinion, and reflects badly on the entire fishing community.


Overall, I think the whole thing is workable, as long as ALL parties involved understand the situation, respect one another, and respect the resource from which they seek to make money.

It would be nice if more catch and release were done with the hybrids. It would definitely serve the interests of the guides if the lake were jam packed with 15lb hybrids.

I do think it is a good time to have a serious discussion on both the size and bag limits on Hybrids. They are a limited resource. I always hear people say "they have a short life expectancy so you might as well eat them" or "they can't reproduce so there is no reason to catch and release from a conservation standpoint". I looked up the All Ages Lake Records on some of the most popular hybrid lakes in the state. Listed below are the dates those records were set.

Tawakoni- 1988
Cedar Creek- 1999
Richland Chambers- 2003
Palestine- 1997
Ray Hubbard- 1984

These dates tell me that there are VERY VERY few fish reaching anything close to their life expectancy. I realize that some people catch records and either don't know it or don't care. However, you would think that out of all these popular lakes that somebody would have submitted at least one record in the last 10 years. I almost never see monster hybrid pics posted on this forum. It would be cool to have the potential to catch some monster hybrids. To do that you either need to stock more or harvest less.

Personally I would like to see a more regional approach to lake management. Maybe lakes that get higher pressure need to have the limits changed. Also lakes go through cycles. For example Richland Chambers has been in a rut the last few years. In my opinion even white bass limits should have been decreased to help the population rebound. TP&W already has Regional Biologists that are over given lakes. You would think regional management wouldn't be that big of a deal to implement. If done correctly it could also give local anglers a voice in the management of their "home" lakes.

Guys-

We just spent about an hour cleaning this thread up. If we can't keep the personal problems off this topic, it will get moved again. Let's also try and keep it on topic. This is a Tawakoni discussion. Whether you support or don't support RHSA can be saved for a Ray Hubbard discussion.

If a post in this thread makes you angry, please step away form the computer for a few minutes before you post so we don't have to edit your response.

Thanks for helping us!

Thanks for returning and cleaning up the thread J.P.

People love to use the "they're just going to die anyway" excuse to justify killing things. IMHO it's like killing the cow for a glass of milk.

The problem is that by the time the TPWD goes through the "process" it's too late. Unfortunately I've seen the same thing in the Pacific NW.

Used to be you could keep sturgeon between 36 and 72 inches. It takes a sturgeon a minimum of 10-15 years to hit the bottom end of that slot and close to 40 to hit the top. Sturgeon only spawn once every 2-3 years. The slot got smaller over a couple of decades. Went down to 38-54" nose to fork of the tail. It was found that almost all sturgeon over 60" were breeding females.

A few years back the sea lions at Bonneville Dam started eating sturgeon. Bonneville blocks most upstream movement for breeding sturgeon so during breeding sturgeon there's a huge number of fish in the river below the dam. Used to be you could fish all the way up to the dam. Then a deadline was put in place and finally had about 10 miles of river where you couldn't fish for sturgeon.

Long story made short. Between the sport fishermen, gill netters poachers, and sea lions the population of sturgeon in the river took a huge hit. Sturgeon retention(keeping them) is no longer allowed for sport fishermen. It will be a minimum of 20 years before it's allowed again. The idea is to allow those fish at the bottom of the slot to grow to the top of the slot.

Mind you the sea lions are still slaughtering sturgeon in mass numbers at the base of the dam and the gill netters still are allowed "by catch" of over 1000 per year of all sizes.

The sport fishermen who actually funded the sturgeon fishery took it in the shorts.

Here in Texas where the fishery is much more fertile and on Tawakoni which has the ability to turn out some world class fish the majority of the fish never get the chance to reach their potential as they get killed as soon as they're legal size, or before by those who don't care. I mean they're just going to die anyway so what difference does it make?

You can either manage a fishery like Tawakoni like a food market or a trophy lake. There's a reason one of the best catfish guides on Tawakoni wanted it treated as a trophy fishery. He witnessed the decline in both numbers and size of the blue cat population.

Same thing is going to happen with the hybrids and stripers.

I'd like to challenge the guides working Tawakoni to preach catch and release on the hybrid and striped bass. Ask people to only kill what they can eat in one or two meals. Otherwise look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself where you're going to work when the population of these fish crashes.

"What you talkin bout Willis"?

Think of it like deer hunting. If you continue to take game from the wild, the population will decline to the point where the state steps in and imposes seasonal fishing. Having lived up in Illinois, I was shocked to hear I could only fish during certain seasons. Same with the sturgeon and salmon out in Oregon, there are seasons for fishing there too; well there was on sturgeon. It really doesn't matter who's doing the fishing, guides or local fisherman, conserving the species should be on everybody's mind so that Max, his brother, and my kids have something to catch.

Now then, let's not forget, that limits and regulations are only for those who care to follow them. I've seen people catching and keeping undersized fish in high numbers and it sickens me. I understand people may be hungry, but I'd like to see people being held accountable for their actions. God bless the wardens who are tasked with this chore; they obviously can't be everywhere.

Don't even get me started on what's going on with salmon in the Pacific NW.

Ideally everyone would follow the law. But we all know that doesn't happen. But to justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior is a tactic of a three year old.

Wow, makes me happy to have 5 ponds stocked with bass,catfish and blue gills, no pressure here.

Same here .... But 4 ponds

To answer the original question, the texoma guides are probably not going to effect the lake at all. Unless something has changed, guides do not keep any fish for themselves. The fish that are taken out of any lake are harvested by guys just like you and me that buy a fishing license too. The fact that they are on someone elses boat should make no difference. I think most guys that hire guides go maybe once or twice a year. If you think about it, is it that unreasonable that they harvest 30-60 fish in an entire year? After all, their license cost helped to put those fish in the lake for everyone to enjoy. Yes every fish that is taken is one less that can be caught in the future but low lake levels resulting in suboptimal white bass spawns, and hybrids and stripers flowing over the spillway in high water situations likely have far more impact on the long term future of a lake than several dozen additional anglers harvesting their limit a few times a year. And that doesn't factor in other predators like tens of thousands of comerants or a lake full of monster catfish that will kill whatever they can get in their mouth 24/7 year round. Just seems like blaming 10 guys that are helping the average fisherman enjoy a day on the lake with some friends and maybe put a few fish in the freezer or have a fish fry with their family is unreasonable.

Proper limits will respect the fishery. Proactive rather than reactive seems to be a formula that will save this fishery. Rudeness by guides should fall under an ethical requirement set by the state with a formal process that should allow for revocation of Guide Licenses. As a teacher I can have my Teacher's Certificate revoked for a multiplicity of reasons. Why should another 'Public' service agent--Which guides are--- whether they admit it or not --- not be held to similar guidelines?
Its a tough topic but worthy of note for protection towards this fishery and others. Every honest fisher person should have an 'accountability' bone and should help. For the ones that don't...continually turn them in with complaints to friends, Parks and Wildlife and Local Authorities so that someone will have enough of it and start some action happening. Nobody likes rude behavior it's just that too few speak up to the right people to do anything about it. I turn in EVERY fool i see taking fish over the limit to the game warden- even stories that I hear about after the fact, every Guide that is unethical or even rude will have a formal complaint against them and I will tell EVERYONE I come in contact with about their behavior and do it on a frequent basis.

Thank you ATM97 for putting the discussion back in the water of Lake Tawakoni and talking about those resident species that are most relevant here. Yours is the first post that I have seen here that cover lake Tawakoni ecosystem. It's my belief that only discussion like this will lead to a real workable solution. Comparing apple and orange, lumping totally different species from thousands of miles away in very different circumstances is a diversion, I simply fail to see a convergence of wild salmon and sturgeon spawning to the sterile put and take hybrids and stripers in Tawakoni. Following the lead of blue catfish to attain "world class" status for hybrids and stripers in lake Tawakoni is rediculous. What is "world class" hybrids, or stripers, for stripers in our Arkansas is around 60 lb, too far fetch in a shallow lake like Tawakoni. Also termilogy like "meat market" is just totally off base, you can't buy game fish, the fishermen has to learn how to catch the fish, it's called fishing, fishermen go fishing, they catch fish, they bring fish home... or get skunk and bring home nothing....

Btw, the picture is priceless, a picture speaks a thousand words.

Thanks JP for the post being restored. I wrote JP a note and he wrote me back and was true to his word. I think there has been a lot of good discussions taking place here. Look at the number of hits and comments if there is any doubt. It's pretty clear to me this a timely subject. Also through this whole thread Bank Angler 50 and I have shared some amazing PM messages. Please remember this. We are all different people with different thoughts and backgrounds. I decided to reach out to Bank Angler and am so glad I did. He has a storied background. When we cut through all the emotions and passion we are all just fisherman that care about our resources. Well we also need to care about our greatest resource- one another. Peace.