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#11355121 - 01/18/16 11:24 PM line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight?
leanin post Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 5385
Loc: TEXAS
(from the headshed of Viscious)

Thanks for asking and giving us a chance to explain or figure out what is going on. Testing line strength with a dead weight as you are doing will not work to test the line strength. I can’t really explain why but I can tell you a story of some testing that we just went through doing the same tests. We had a dealer in south Florida report doing the same exercise you are doing with some of our braid and claimed it wasn’t strong. We had all the line shipped back to us for internal testing. I took the line and repeated the test in house with some dumbbells and got the same results. The 10lb braid wouldn’t pick up a 10lb weight from the table before breaking (15 and 20lb did the same). I took the same line and tested on our tensile strength machine and was getting breaking results around 18-19lbs. I didn’t have an explanation for this so I sent the line off to a large independent lab that we are required to use by Walmart and some of our other large vendors. The test came back with similar results to our tensile strength test and had a breaking strength around 18lbs. We did this same test with other brands also to make sure we were getting similar results.



I tell you all that to say you can’t test the tensile (breaking) strength of a fishing line by lifting a dead weight. I’m definitely willing to replace your line and personally test it before shipping if you would like but I believe the line you have is fine.
_________________________
The more gratitude you give to Jesus for the things you have, the more he will bless you with the things you need- Steve Harvey

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Ask Ron about his crappie trolling rigs designed with input from top crappie fisherman!!

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#11355126 - 01/18/16 11:36 PM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
leanin post Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 5385
Loc: TEXAS
The reason I sent the inquiry is that I have a roll of 6 pound wally m mono and its noticable harder to snap than the 6 pound viscious,. the Viscious is smaller diameter. So I was trying to find out if I got a bad roll, or what.
After the explaination im confused as to what the difference in dead weight and mechanically induced force by mechanical means..
_________________________
The more gratitude you give to Jesus for the things you have, the more he will bless you with the things you need- Steve Harvey

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Ask Ron about his crappie trolling rigs designed with input from top crappie fisherman!!

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#11355150 - 01/19/16 01:06 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
Flippin-Out Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 1564
Loc: Magnolia, TX
I think you have discovered the (excellent) quality control at Viscious. When you buy the line you bought, I'm guessing you wanted a combination of factors, one being how thin it is, and another being it's strength (given that thin diameter). Well, they could make it really strong - greater than the 6# rating - but that would mean it would need to be thicker in diameter. You probably wouldn't like that extra thickness forced on you. If you wanted more strength, you might choose to buy 8# test instead, and live with the added diameter of that particular line.

So, Viscious is delivering (with tight tolerance) exactly what the package says - line that tests at just barely above their stated rating - so that they can offer, at the same time, the thinnest line possible for that pound test.

A lower quality line can compensate for wider manufacturing variations by bumping the line up in diameter. On a good day, their equipment might be pumping out line that tests at 9# or more....just to be sure, so that when they slip a bit, it's still at least 6# test. This way, sloppy QC can yield a line that's always at least 6# test, but the lower QC will mean that line is thicker. Why would they do it this way? They can pump out more line on given production equipment, making the cost of production lower even though a bit more material went into the product. Doing this means the line will be thicker, but less expensive.

Our fishing lines are rated in "pound test" and are provided by a tensile strength measurement. Tensile strength is actually the breaking point of a material pulled apart in force per unit area. For instance, for structural steel, a material might have a tensile strength of "500 pounds" which really refers to "a force of 500 pounds per square inch" to pull it apart. A 1/4 inch rod may be made with 500 pound steel, but it will pull apart long before 500 pounds of force because it doesn't have a cross-section of 1 square inch.

A fishing line isn't just 10# test for instance. It's really "10 pounds per xxxx" in strength, where the xxxx is some standard unit of surface measure. I don't know what that might be, but it's the same for all line measurements. As an exercise, let's pretend the line is "6 pounds per square inch" to break. (A crazy example, but hopefully you get the point.) If we have a thread of iine made from material that will break when a 1 inch cross-section piece is pulled by 6 pounds, then our thread will break long before we reach 6 pounds of pull.

I don't know what the unmentioned unit of measure is for measuring tensile strength of fishing line, but there is one, and that's the key to why "x pound test" won't pick up a barbell weighing x pounds.

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#11355160 - 01/19/16 02:59 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
mreed Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 06/24/14
Posts: 63
Loc: Wise County
My thought on it, which may or may not be dumb, is has anyone tried the same dead weight test with the weight under water? I know the difference wouldn't be dramatic but it might be enough to lift a 5lb weight with 6lb test....
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#11355319 - 01/19/16 07:48 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
hung-up101 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 110
Loc: Earth
When you figure all this out, I really would like to see that 5 lb. crappie.....

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#11355466 - 01/19/16 08:56 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
Mo Online   content
TFF Guru

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 11698
Loc: Lake Palestine/Cherokee co
I think in simplest terms, it has to do with momentum , you have to apply more than 5 lbs of force to get the 5 lb weight moving. pulling on a force gauge is different that lifting weight.

If you ever get a chance to play with a force gauge made for fishing line, test your knots.
It is a humbling experience for a lot of fishermen to find out how weak some of their favorites
knots are. This is why I have not tied a clinch or improved clinch in 20 years. smile

Most line test out at more than their stated strength . This causes problems for
IGFA record seekers. They think they have a line class record only to have their line/leader
test out too strong.

Mo
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#11355534 - 01/19/16 09:20 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
Bubbler99 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/01/16
Posts: 129
Loc: Rowlett
OK. My real job so I can comment on this; I am a materials engineer.

You have to look at all the constraints:
quality of material (and defects in the material)
accuracy of your calibration (your weights are likely not exactly 5lbs)
and defects on the connection that can damage the wire
your line is also likely not 5psi but rated different as you know the line is not an inch in diameter.
last....pull rates are at a standard pull speed. if you attach a 5 pound weight to a string and attach that string to the end of a scale....that free falling weight will register much more than 5lbs when it hits bottom and starts to accelerate back in the opposite direction.
remember you will have both potential and kinetic energy at work (1/2mv*v).

I would suspect when you initially pull on your line you are exerting much more than 5lbs. Use a fish measuring scale and tie the line to that scale and start to reel if you want to be more accurate....

You might also want to consider that conditions matter. Some materials might hold up better when wet than others. We used to do breaking test on glass fibers. An as pulled fiber will hold over a million pounds. Add a drop of water and it goes to less than 100k. Add a nick + water and you can break it at 5k.

From an experience engineer and fishing hobby dude.


Edited by Bubbler99 (01/19/16 09:30 AM)

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#11355621 - 01/19/16 09:53 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: mreed]
Flippin-Out Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 1564
Loc: Magnolia, TX
Originally Posted By: mreed
My thought on it, which may or may not be dumb, is has anyone tried the same dead weight test with the weight under water? I know the difference wouldn't be dramatic but it might be enough to lift a 5lb weight with 6lb test....


The difference depends on the water displaced by the 5 pound weight. If you are using a lead weight, I'd guess the difference in water to be about 4 ounces, not enough to matter much.

Water displacement calculations are a thing of mine. I got banned from a site over introducing known science. One member there questioned facts I was presenting with the statement "If a man weighs 200 pounds how can a life vest you claim has 30 pounds of buoyancy hold him up (in the water)?". His question was rhetorical and intended to show how ludicrous what I was saying was, LOL.


Edited by Flippin-Out (01/19/16 09:55 AM)

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#11355805 - 01/19/16 11:12 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: Bubbler99]
leanin post Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 5385
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: Bubbler99
OK. My real job so I can comment on this; I am a materials engineer.

You have to look at all the constraints:
quality of material (and defects in the material)
accuracy of your calibration (your weights are likely not exactly 5lbs)
and defects on the connection that can damage the wire
your line is also likely not 5psi but rated different as you know the line is not an inch in diameter.
last....pull rates are at a standard pull speed. if you attach a 5 pound weight to a string and attach that string to the end of a scale....that free falling weight will register much more than 5lbs when it hits bottom and starts to accelerate back in the opposite direction.
remember you will have both potential and kinetic energy at work (1/2mv*v).

I would suspect when you initially pull on your line you are exerting much more than 5lbs. Use a fish measuring scale and tie the line to that scale and start to reel if you want to be more accurate....

You might also want to consider that conditions matter. Some materials might hold up better when wet than others. We used to do breaking test on glass fibers. An as pulled fiber will hold over a million pounds. Add a drop of water and it goes to less than 100k. Add a nick + water and you can break it at 5k.

From an experience engineer and fishing hobby dude.


makes great sense, thanks !!!!!
_________________________
The more gratitude you give to Jesus for the things you have, the more he will bless you with the things you need- Steve Harvey

www.nekidtackle.com
Ask Ron about his crappie trolling rigs designed with input from top crappie fisherman!!

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#11355813 - 01/19/16 11:15 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: hung-up101]
leanin post Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 5385
Loc: TEXAS
Originally Posted By: hung-up101
When you figure all this out, I really would like to see that 5 lb. crappie.....


maybe thats the reason I have been losing them ??? haha
_________________________
The more gratitude you give to Jesus for the things you have, the more he will bless you with the things you need- Steve Harvey

www.nekidtackle.com
Ask Ron about his crappie trolling rigs designed with input from top crappie fisherman!!

Top
#11355828 - 01/19/16 11:20 AM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
River Mongrel Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 1165
I think line test has something to do with a certain length of line as well. Ive found Big Game is as tough as they get. (Mono wise) I don't know if Big Game is in 4 to 6 lb range. I use 15 and 12.
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#11356124 - 01/19/16 01:03 PM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
Bubbler99 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/01/16
Posts: 129
Loc: Rowlett
You might be correct Mongrel; length is likely some part of the pull test requirement. Sure these guys do have a standard. But regardless if the fiber is that min length or max it should still hold to the specification.

I suspect the issue here is really how quickly its pulled. Velocity and acceleration is critical. Remember a one ounce piece of lead isn't to threatening. Accelerated to 1200ft/sec and it'll kill ya...........

Jerk that line hard and you can break it.. Same analogy as the martial arts guys breaking the boards.

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#11356676 - 01/19/16 04:43 PM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
bogey Offline
TFF Guru

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 14508
Loc: plano
Wouldn't it also have something to do with the flex in the rod? That is why we play fish with the tip up, so we can make the rod work instead of having the rod pointed at the fish.
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#11356711 - 01/19/16 04:59 PM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
sapalmer Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 564
Loc: Dallas
I caught a 20 lb flathead on 6lb Mr Crappie. You are buying the wrong line.


Edited by sapalmer (01/19/16 04:59 PM)

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#11356741 - 01/19/16 05:16 PM Re: line strength .. why wont 6 pound test line pick up a 5 pound weight? [Re: leanin post]
joser Offline
Pro Angler

Registered: 10/31/11
Posts: 506
Loc: clyde texas
If you were fishing with 4 lb test line and caught a 4 lb crappie would you try to lift that fish in the boat with the line only, heck no you'd yell get the net, I used to finess fish for bass with light line we always netted the fish becuase just a kick of there tail could break the line, just because it says 8lb test doesn't mean you can land that 8lb fish thats what the nets for.

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