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Max Online: 36273 @ 01/23/13 02:34 PM
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#11316346 - 01/01/16 01:02 PM Need schooling on side image basics
mikey6345 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 207
Loc: Dallas
Happy New Year everyone.

I have a (probably stupid) question but gonna ask anyway.

I have a small bass tracker I use exclusively on Caddo Lake. Has a real cheap piranhamax FF on it. I do not need any down image capabilities really as the lake is 4-6 foot deep everywhere you go outside of the river channel.

I am seeing more abut side imaging and wonder if that might be useful for peeking around cypress trees or across the grass flats I fish in shallow water. Thoughts from the group?

Also, are side image units pretty straight forward on installs? I really don't want to start getting too technical here. I have done fine fishing without it but I like fishing toys as much as the next guy on this forum.

Thanks for any advice.

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#11316371 - 01/01/16 01:21 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Wayne P. Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 3433
Loc: Charlottesville, Va
Side Imaging looks to the sides. You just have to install the transducer so it can do that.

All SI units have Down Imaging, 2D sonar, and GPS/mapping also.
Hummingbird Side Imaging will show left and right as long as the transducer is not buried in the bottom.

I have a 16' Tracker, all my sonar units are Side Imaging models.


Edited by Wayne P. (01/01/16 01:27 PM)
_________________________
Humminbird Helix 12 CHIRP SI, 1198c SI, 1198c SI, ONIX 10 SI NT, Helix 7 CHIRP SI GPS G2, 360, RC-1

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#11316385 - 01/01/16 01:31 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Capt Jerry Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 12/22/13
Posts: 241
Loc: Cedar Creek Lake
For strictly at Caddo.... I'd go with a sonar with GPS. I do not see side or down imaging being very useful in such a shallow lake. The GPS is very useful for navigation and marking spots.

I'd spend the extra money on more fishing tackle or fishing trips!

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#11316547 - 01/01/16 03:14 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Flippin-Out Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 1564
Loc: Magnolia, TX
Side Scan sonar (regardless of brand) can only "see" to the side at a limited elevation angle. It cannot see at a true horizontal perspective. This means that the effective side-range is greatly affected by the depth of the water where you are using the side-scan. In shallow water, you will not be able to see accurately for nearly as far to the sides as the same unit used in deeper water. You can set the range of the system however you want, but the effective range and output (to the screen) will be based on the water depth and the viewing angle of the transducer. I'm afraid you'd be sorely disappointed with the results.

Getting good side-scan sonar is not an inexpensive proposition. My opinion is that you'd be spending a lot of $$$ for a very limited function given that you primarily fish Caddo where the water is quite shallow with respect to effective use of side-scan.

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#11316577 - 01/01/16 03:36 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Wayne P. Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 3433
Loc: Charlottesville, Va
Some false statements have been posted above.

How about some facts:

Humminbird's Side Imaging covers from the water's surface to past vertical under the transducer on both sides. I know because I use it.

As long as the transducer is not buried in the bottom you will get side coverage for 100+' on both sides if the bottom is flat enough.

SI and DI have very little coverage in shallow water.
If you want shallow water coverage, Humminbird Side Imaging is the deal.

This image shows a creek channel on the right side I was following from a distance checking for shad and bass after a summer rain storm. I was guessing they would move to the cooler inflow and they did. The shad school is about midway down in the creek and bass are just being recorded in the creek at the top. I caught some of them--I had 100' of bottom coverage in less than 2' of water:
The black horizontal streaks are stump/tree shadows.




This shows 200' of bottom coverage in less than 4' and after seeing the bass at the lower left, I made a cast to where it was and caught it. The light area on the right side is submerged shoreline weeds:







Edited by Wayne P. (01/01/16 03:57 PM)
_________________________
Humminbird Helix 12 CHIRP SI, 1198c SI, 1198c SI, ONIX 10 SI NT, Helix 7 CHIRP SI GPS G2, 360, RC-1

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#11316595 - 01/01/16 03:47 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Wayne P. Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 3433
Loc: Charlottesville, Va
How about some more mythbusting:

This shows where I was scanning along the outer edge of a dollar pad field looking for spawners. At the upper right are a couple of outboard trenches done by some that did not realize how shallow it was out in the middle of the lake. I just had 80' of coverage this time since I could almost see the pad stems in the muddy water:




This shows where I was checking another spawning area and saw these two bass--caught both of them---just 100' of coverage in 3' depth:




If you want the best sonar for Caddo, here is your sign!!!!!


Edited by Wayne P. (01/01/16 03:51 PM)
_________________________
Humminbird Helix 12 CHIRP SI, 1198c SI, 1198c SI, ONIX 10 SI NT, Helix 7 CHIRP SI GPS G2, 360, RC-1

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#11316812 - 01/01/16 05:32 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
shadboy Online   content
Pro Angler

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 923
Loc: Sachse, TX
Mikey you just got a PHD lesson in SI from the professor.
_________________________

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#11317281 - 01/01/16 09:01 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Bobby Milam Online   content
Extreme Angler

Registered: 07/13/14
Posts: 1991
Loc: Arlington
That last picture...I would have driven right past there and never stopped. Even with them circled, I had trouble seeing the fish at first. I don't know how you guys pick them out while actively fishing.

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#11317300 - 01/01/16 09:13 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Andy73 Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 01/29/14
Posts: 33
Loc: Lake Eufaula Oklahoma
I have a 1199 hbird and I have at least 100' coverage as shallow as my boat will run with the big moter.

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#11317758 - 01/02/16 08:24 AM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: Wayne P.]
Flippin-Out Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/25/15
Posts: 1564
Loc: Magnolia, TX
"Humminbird's Side Imaging covers from the water's surface to past vertical under the transducer on both sides. I know because I use it."

I admit I did not specifically investigate HB for angle, so I should have stated so. HB doesn't state side view combined beam angle specs on their website that I could find. Physics holds that oblique angles are extremely challenging to sonar signaling, regardless of electronics brand.

I'm not trying to bash any brand of side imaging. The point is that they are ALL more functional in deeper water vs. shallow water because more targets are at a less oblique angle and can be more effectively "painted" for image generation.

In one of your images, there are multiple shadows that could be fish painted less effectively than one target in particular you called out as a bass. You imply there was one fish present, that is was a bass, and that you caught that particular fish. The sonar can't confirm any of the detail stated - you've taken the major anecdotal evidence route. Here's an equally plausible scenario: There were ten fish present though the sonar couldn't see them, the target noted was actually a turtle - and then you caught a bass! There's a lot less certainty to some aspects of sonar imagery than you are comprehending in visions of grandeur. Absolute species identification isn't something sonar does. A viewer may analyze and predict based on circumstances, but that is ALL it is. Sonar also can't tell you about fish out of view of the sonar beam, so you certainly can't be sure of a head count for fish present. There are countless circumstances that "hide" fish from being shown as targets. Lastly, how can you tell that the bass you caught was actually responsible for the target in that image?

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#11318213 - 01/02/16 12:36 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: Flippin-Out]
Wayne P. Offline
TFF Team Angler

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 3433
Loc: Charlottesville, Va
Originally Posted By: Flippin-Out
"Humminbird's Side Imaging covers from the water's surface to past vertical under the transducer on both sides. I know because I use it."

I admit I did not specifically investigate HB for angle, so I should have stated so. HB doesn't state side view combined beam angle specs on their website that I could find. Physics holds that oblique angles are extremely challenging to sonar signaling, regardless of electronics brand.

I'm not trying to bash any brand of side imaging. The point is that they are ALL more functional in deeper water vs. shallow water because more targets are at a less oblique angle and can be more effectively "painted" for image generation.

In one of your images, there are multiple shadows that could be fish painted less effectively than one target in particular you called out as a bass. You imply there was one fish present, that is was a bass, and that you caught that particular fish. The sonar can't confirm any of the detail stated - you've taken the major anecdotal evidence route. Here's an equally plausible scenario: There were ten fish present though the sonar couldn't see them, the target noted was actually a turtle - and then you caught a bass! There's a lot less certainty to some aspects of sonar imagery than you are comprehending in visions of grandeur. Absolute species identification isn't something sonar does. A viewer may analyze and predict based on circumstances, but that is ALL it is. Sonar also can't tell you about fish out of view of the sonar beam, so you certainly can't be sure of a head count for fish present. There are countless circumstances that "hide" fish from being shown as targets. Lastly, how can you tell that the bass you caught was actually responsible for the target in that image?




"Lastly, how can you tell that the bass you caught was actually responsible for the target in that image?"

It ain't rocket science, it was there when I cast to it since I knew it was a fish--I know how to interpret recorded sonar subjects whether 2D sonar or imaging. The catch confirmed it was a bass a little over 4#. The return was not there when I checked that area afterwards for more. The water was somewhat cold and all the bass I had caught earlier were near deeper water--one was 9# 9oz and another one was 10# 7oz.
I just noticed that one on the way back to the ramp.

I caught this one using the 360. I could see it change position in the laydown, I took the screen shot, cast where it was and caught it:



The 360 is the same as Side Imaging, just the two crystals rotate and do the scanning.

Check the water depth for these two catches where I was doing the same thing:





Bottom line is if you have good equipment, learn how to use it and interpret what it displays, you have a search tool and a fishing tool.
_________________________
Humminbird Helix 12 CHIRP SI, 1198c SI, 1198c SI, ONIX 10 SI NT, Helix 7 CHIRP SI GPS G2, 360, RC-1

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#11318470 - 01/02/16 04:39 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Txduckhunter Offline
Extreme Angler

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Lake Fork
I've run both of the big brands. Hummingbird seems to be more user friendly and reads better in shallow water.

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#11318884 - 01/02/16 07:44 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
Capt Jerry Offline
Outdoorsman

Registered: 12/22/13
Posts: 241
Loc: Cedar Creek Lake
Is everyone factoring in the fact that Caddo is full of Cypress trees, hydrilla, pads, etc. in the very shallow water? Last I saw, side scan does not see through solid objects.

I stick with my initial thought..... side imaging (and down imaging) will have very limited use in Caddo. A gps will, however, be very useful. Oh, and I'd spend some money on a good push pole!

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#11320124 - 01/03/16 12:35 PM Re: Need schooling on side image basics [Re: mikey6345]
shut-up-and-fish Online   content
TFF Celebrity

Registered: 02/08/10
Posts: 9088
Loc: Coppell Tx.
Originally Posted By: mikey6345
Happy New Year everyone.

I have a (probably stupid) question but gonna ask anyway.

I have a small bass tracker I use exclusively on Caddo Lake. Has a real cheap piranhamax FF on it. I do not need any down image capabilities really as the lake is 4-6 foot deep everywhere you go outside of the river channel.

I am seeing more abut side imaging and wonder if that might be useful for peeking around cypress trees or across the grass flats I fish in shallow water. Thoughts from the group?

Also, are side image units pretty straight forward on installs? I really don't want to start getting too technical here. I have done fine fishing without it but I like fishing toys as much as the next guy on this forum.

Thanks for any advice.





I would be happy to discuss with you your Humminbird options available to best fit your needs. I also do installation if needed.

Shot me a PM or give me a call direct. I would be happy to talk with you.

David @ shut-up-and-fish
972 822 9285
_________________________


It's all coming together and we have you covered @ Shut-Up-And-Fish LLC
for all your Humminbird, Minn Kota & Motorguide needs.
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